# Discussion: Not good, but “Good for the money”....



## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Hi everyone! 
Hope everyone is doing well.
So I get another one of these emails this morning and it’s a pet peeve of mine. Some guy writes me to tell me that he picked up one of my mouthpieces in the UK and loves it to death. I asked him what he used before and without me naming a name, he said he used a certain mouthpiece and it was “good for the money”.
He said he didn’t like the sound of it and didn’t like the feel of the beak—- but it was good for the money. ?????
He said he used it for a couple of years with his $4000 saxophone, and never really liked it, but it was “good for the money”.

If you are a saxophone player, it would seem like your sound is the most important thing. 
It defines who you are and it is your personality. What you play, also adds to that but the first thing anyone hears when they listen to you, is your sound. 

Why would you spend good money on a saxophone, and settle for a mouthpiece that is just “good for the money”.
I truly don’t get this at all. The sad thing is, I hear this comment all the time. I never understand people who spend a lot of money on a saxophone and settle for a mouthpiece that doesn’t give them the best sound they can get. It doesn’t mean you have to spend tons of money. You can find a mouthpiece that is inexpensive that plays great for you, so why settle on something that doesn’t play great...and then rationalize it by saying it’s “good for the money”?
I would rather hear that someone got a good playing mouthpiece for themselves and it was inexpensive, rather than hear them say that they got a mouthpiece that they didn't enjoy, and try to justify it not being good for them, by saying, “Well, it was good for the money”.

To me, if you don’t like anything about it, it’s not good for anything. 
It may take a while to find the mouthpiece that you love, but don’t settle for any reason. 
It’s not about whether he liked my mouthpiece or not, there are lots of mouthpieces to choose from, it’s just the fact that someone would settle so long and not bother searching for something that’s going to give them happiness.
Your sound, I would think, would be number one on your list. 

Just an early morning thought, here.


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## Dave Pollack (Sep 3, 2013)

Mouthpiece > saxophone!!! Get that setup right (including reed and lig) THEN apply it to a horn. Doesn’t make any sense to do the opposite.

I used to drag race and had (technically still have) a carbureted 355sbc...it would be like putting a vacuum secondary 550cfm carburetor that had the wrong jets in it, and then when it doesn’t run right at all, say that “well it’s okay for the money but doesn’t work great with this engine.” Gotta pay up for the 750 Holley dp!! (Sorry for the car specific stuff...just figured it was a good analogy)


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## vbluesman (May 3, 2012)

A bargain mouthpiece is no bargain if it makes you want to hurl your saxophone out of a three story building.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Amen to that!


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## tony51 (Feb 7, 2009)

Some people can’t afford a $400 mouthpiece so they have to buy a $100 (or less) mouthpiece. This is unlikely to be as good as the $400 mouthpiece, so they hope to one that’s good for the money, it doesn’t seem such a difficult concept to understand.


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## JayeLID (Feb 12, 2009)

10mfan said:


> Why would you spend good money on a saxophone, and settle for a mouthpiece that is just "good for the money".


Because life's realities might well dictate that that $300 can and should go towards something more important/urgent than a sax mouthpiece ? 
And life's realities are often that we, as adults, have to face challenging decisions on a regular basis, where we may not just be able to get what we want in a particular microcosm...so although we have to 'settle' in one arena, the result will be better in the larger scope of things... so perhaps it is best to avoid shooting oneself in the foot when possible.

Something like that....



vbluesman said:


> A bargain mouthpiece is no bargain if it makes you want to hurl your saxophone out of a three story building.


But of course you have taken the most ridiculous outlier and used it to rationalize what may be, in many people's eyes, a foolish choice. So it's a bit odd to use an absurdity to support what might be a selfish and economically foolish decision.

Because, of course...MOST $100-125 mouthpieces, are not utter pieces garbage which would result in one wanting to hurl their sax off a building. Nor would 'having' to play one leave one in such a foul mood that during the gig you are truly suffering....and after the gig you'd go home and kick your dog.



10mfan said:


> If you don't like anything about it, it's not good for anything.


But most players probably like enough aspects of their $125 mouthpiece to keep using it. I wouldn't be going out on a limb to say that most players would be able to choose a $100-150 'piece that they like quite well enough.

So, you are equating "moderately priced mouthpiece" with "player doesn't like anything about it" yet the latter is not likely sequitir ...and again, this is a bit of an over-the-top parallel to draw.



tony51 said:


> Some people can't afford a $400 mouthpiece so they have to buy a $100 (or less) mouthpiece. This is unlikely to be as good as the $400 mouthpiece, so they hope to one that's good for the money, it doesn't seem such a difficult concept to understand.


B

I

N

G

O


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## lesacks (Feb 15, 2015)

+1 to JayeLID

Language is a funny thing. People often use aphorisms and clichés to avoid thinking about stuff, like mistakes - or commuting to an error... there's every chance your chappy knows, in his heart, it's a mess and just needs a little something - for himself, not you - to make it less embarrassing, save a little face. 
IMHO, the best thing is to nodd politely, mutter "yeah, a good price, works for some not others" etc.


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## Oric Muso (Jul 29, 2008)

Mouthpieces can be expensive. If you manage to pick something up cheap that works OK a lot of people will stick with that even if it isn't ideal. We often tell people not to go down the route of chasing after the perfect mouthpiece. "Stick with what you've got and learn how to play on it." Is often the advice. I guess the rationale couple with the " you get what you pay for" idea, so if you have something that wasn't expensive that works, there's a choice of splashing out a lot more money or sticking with what you have.


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## 1saxman (Feb 3, 2003)

I think most of the great sax that was recorded during the 'golden age' was probably done with a 'good' mouthpiece, not a 'great' one by today's standards. When players don't know any better, they tend to get the most out of what they have. For example, who today would go on national TV weekly playing a Level Air on alto? Sanborn did, and he single-handedly started what became the 'smooth jazz' movement even though what he played was interesting, fun, jazzy and soulful, not what passes for 'smooth jazz' today.
Now, things are different - we have the 'net which provides 'instant knowledge' but without the experience that previously went with it, so players just go with the majority and predictably come out the other side sounding alike.


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## Dave Pollack (Sep 3, 2013)

tony51 said:


> Some people can't afford a $400 mouthpiece so they have to buy a $100 (or less) mouthpiece. This is unlikely to be as good as the $400 mouthpiece, so they hope to one that's good for the money, it doesn't seem such a difficult concept to understand.


In this situation from the OP the guy has a $4,000 saxophone - WHY would you spend that much money on a horn BEFORE setting up the most important parts for sound?


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## A Greene (Oct 3, 2004)

For the Middle School students I teach, I would certainly never recommend a parent buy a $300 mouthpiece. I also can't stand that music companies are supplying what appear to be unfinished blanks in the beginner cases. I recommend kids get a $35 Yamaha 4c plastic mouthpiece. It's a perfectly workable mouthpiece at that price point. Others like the Hite plastic piece - nearly the same price.

I also buy these pieces for the school Tenor and Bari saxophones. No need spending $100's on mouthpiece kids will likely drop.


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## Dave Pollack (Sep 3, 2013)

A Greene said:


> For the Middle School students I teach, I would certainly never recommend a parent buy a $300 mouthpiece. I also can't stand that music companies are supplying what appear to be unfinished blanks in the beginner cases. I recommend kids get a $35 Yamaha 4c plastic mouthpiece. It's a perfectly workable mouthpiece at that price point. Others like the Hite plastic piece - nearly the same price.
> 
> I also buy these pieces for the school Tenor and Bari saxophones. No need spending $100's on mouthpiece kids will likely drop.


Correct - but in this thread the guy has a $4,000 horn. Not the same as some student renting a Yamaha 23.


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## Dr G (Feb 2, 2003)

“Good for the money” is sometimes “best I could afford”. And if people are easily sucked into buying something they don’t need, they may have already overspent on their horn.

So that brings us to “Good for the money” translating to “It meets my needs”.

Does any really need to have a “rare” or “vintage” mouthpiece?


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## A Greene (Oct 3, 2004)

Dave Pollack said:


> Correct - but in this thread the guy has a $4,000 horn. Not the same as some student renting a Yamaha 23.


My point is that there are many levels of players and price points. Many don't have the time, money, or access to spent addition resources experimenting with mouthpieces, reeds, or ligatures. Finding a good set-up and putting in the practice will be more beneficial then looking for a magic mouthpiece.


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## tony51 (Feb 7, 2009)

Dave Pollack said:


> In this situation from the OP the guy has a $4,000 saxophone - WHY would you spend that much money on a horn BEFORE setting up the most important parts for sound?


Fair enough, you are right I missed the part about a $4,000 saxophone. My tenor saxophone (Italian made Buffet) cost $395 from eBay so that's where I'm coming from and my used metal Link was less than $100. A good for the money setup, and in my case the problems definitely reside with the person operating it ...


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## Dave Pollack (Sep 3, 2013)

A Greene said:


> My point is that there are many levels of players and price points. Many don't have the time, money, or access to spent addition resources experimenting with mouthpieces, reeds, or ligatures. Finding a good set-up and putting in the practice will be more beneficial then looking for a magic mouthpiece.


Oh I agree 100%. I'm judt saying THIS thread is about a guy who spent $4,000 on a horn then said he played on a mouthpiece he didn't like. Obviously if the thread were about just high-end mouthpieces in general it's a different conversation. This thread is about this one guy though.


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## Reet McVouty (Dec 3, 2008)

tony51 said:


> Some people can't afford a $400 mouthpiece so they have to buy a $100 (or less) mouthpiece. This is unlikely to be as good as the $400 mouthpiece, so they hope to one that's good for the money, it doesn't seem such a difficult concept to understand.


This is true, but there are also $100 mouthpieces that play just as well as a $400 mouthpiece, depending on what sound your looking for. The problem with 10mfan's rant is we really don't know anything about Mr. Goodforthemoney. We don't know anything about the mouthpiece he was playing previously, was it a reputable mouthpiece that he bought cheap? Did he pay 4K for his horn or is the value he's assigned to it based on internet searches? So, I guess the OP kind of baffles me, considering Mr. GFM was actually praising 10mfan for his mouthpiece...


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## pontius (Nov 7, 2013)

It's easier to call a $50 dollar mouthpiece "good for the money" than it is a $400 mouthpiece.


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## saxoclese (Nov 30, 2011)

This discussion begs the question of how many saxophone players actually play at the level that they can get the full potential out of the highest price mouthpieces and/or saxophones. I suspect that some are trying to "buy" their way up to a higher level of sound and performance rather than "work" their way up to a higher level which of course takes much more time, talent, and effort.


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## saxcop (Apr 19, 2004)

I used to throw a Metalite in my suitcase when I traveled, in case I wanted to try a horn as some shop I visited. I thought it was good for the money. I thought I would just leave on at my vacation home and wouldn't pack my 10mfan piece with me. Nope. Can't do it. I need my regular piece. However you don't know what you don't know.


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## Dave Pollack (Sep 3, 2013)

saxoclese said:


> This discussion begs the question of how many saxophone players actually play at the level that they can get the full potential out of the highest price mouthpieces and/or saxophones. I suspect that some are trying to "buy" their way up to a higher level of sound and performance rather than "work" their way up to a higher level which of course takes much more time, talent, and effort.


Oh absolutely - I see terrible players buying new gear all the time in hopes it will "make them sound better."


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## CatDuet (Jul 10, 2012)

"This discussion begs the question of how many saxophone players actually play at the level that they can get the full potential out of the highest price".

This seems to be my sax teacher's opinion. He told me if I came into my lesson with a different mouthpiece than my Meyer 5… he would make me take it back to the store. A tenor player, he has only ever played on a Link, and he gets professional gigs backing for famous artists. There are times when a mpc just isn't working though. Before my Meyer, I had one that was picky about reeds, and that was a hassle, I admit.


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## JayeLID (Feb 12, 2009)

Dave Pollack said:


> In this situation from the OP the guy has a $4,000 saxophone - WHY would you spend that much money on a horn BEFORE setting up the most important parts for sound?


This is just a completely SILLY argument. It's like saying "since you have a BMW, anything less than a $2000 set of tires is doing yourself AND your Beamer a grave injustice !"

And why in the world would anyone ever just assume "the guy owns a $4000 horn, therefore, he is (or should be) perfectly comfortable in buying a $500 mouthpiece (?) The presumptuousness there is a bit much, no ?


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## skeller047 (Feb 12, 2009)

There's a real question here that's not being addressed. What did the guy mean by "good enough for the money"? Did it have a good tone, but was a little resistant? High notes a little thin? Or was it really just a bad sounding mouthpiece? 

There is something to be said for playing a "standard" mouthpiece - Meyer, Link, whatever. As long as it's in good shape (not always the case with Meyer and Link), learning to play well on one of these standard, round chamber + rollover baffle pieces is good training for playing on other, "fancier" pieces. 

There ABSOLUTELY IS a difference between an off-the-shelf Link, for example, and a Phil-Tone Tribute, or a 10MFan Classic - these more expensive pieces are like a Lexus to a Toyota Corolla. But I wouldn't appreciate them nearly as much if I hadn't spent years playing on a Link that was "good enough". It was "good enough" to get a ton of gigs, play on a few records, and let me find my voice. A Corolla gets me where I need to go. A Lexus gets me there in style and luxury, but if I couldn't afford it then the Corolla will be just fine, thank you very much.

Mark, not saying you overreacted (well, maybe I am a little), but I don't see where "good enough for the money" is necessarily bad. Of course, we don't know the specifics of this particular case, so maybe I'm off on a tangent (not unusual)...


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## JayeLID (Feb 12, 2009)

Dr G said:


> "Good for the money" is sometimes "best I could afford". And if people are easily sucked into buying something they don't need, they may have already overspent on their horn.
> 
> So that brings us to "Good for the money" translating to "It meets my needs".


Precisely. And if it meets a player's needs, then who is anyone to suggest "aaaaaahhhhh...you are REALLY selling yourself short" or any such malarkey.

It would be like me, upon getting a request on my prices for a refurbed Conn 16M which somebody wants...replying...so, yeah, tops $650. 
BUT , if you are looking for a Tenor, you may be interested in this full pearl S20 I have here. I'd really say this is a better choice. I mean, if you are gonna buy a Tenor...why not buy a TENOR, eh ? Eh ? Eh ?



skeller047 said:


> There ABSOLUTELY IS a difference between an off-the-shelf Link, for example, and a Phil-Tone Tribute, or a 10MFan Classic - these more expensive pieces are like a Lexus to a Toyota Corolla. But I wouldn't appreciate them nearly as much if I hadn't spent years playing on a Link that was "good enough". It was "good enough" to get a ton of gigs, play on a few records, and let me find my voice. A Corolla gets me where I need to go. A Lexus gets me there in style and luxury, but if I couldn't afford it then the Corolla will be just fine, thank you very much.


Absolutely, and nobody here has implied there isn't a difference. But as you say, isn't it up to the beholder to make the determination as to whether the 'piece is doing the job they need and want it to do ? (rhetorical question, really).


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## Manitou (Dec 11, 2015)

people don't develop a pet peeve over a single event, so focusing on the details of this single exchange could be misleading. 

when dealing with an "expert" on a given subject, i think it's normal for a person to be a bit dismissive about their own experience. in this case, dismissing the value or quality of a mpc.


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## Dave Pollack (Sep 3, 2013)

JayeLID said:


> This is just a completely SILLY argument. It's like saying "since you have a BMW, anything less than a $2000 set of tires is doing yourself AND your Beamer a grave injustice !"
> 
> And why in the world would anyone ever just assume "the guy owns a $4000 horn, therefore, he is (or should be) perfectly comfortable in buying a $500 mouthpiece (?) The presumptuousness there is a bit much, no ?


This will be my last post on this thread because I'm wasting my time, and it's the reason I don't post here too often anymore (lots of people have messaged me asking to post more, but oh well).

When setting up your sound on saxophone, the mouthpiece/reed/lig should be first. It's what I teach all of my students and it's what 99.9% of people I've talked to say works best. In this case the guy bought a $4k horn but said he "didn't like the sound of it and didn't like the feel of the beak." Mark was just wondering why someone would spend that much money on a saxophone but not have the other stuff set up first.

I don't care if the "good" mouthpiece is $50 or $500 - that should be set up before dropping the coin on a horn, especially if you're going to say "it's good _for the money._"

All I'm saying is I agree with Mark in that sound is most important, and this person obviously wants to sound good and will spend a considerable amount of money on that, but didn't get things sorted before buying the horn. That's it.

Have fun y'all, I have some recording sessions to edit 

#makejazzfunagain


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## JL (Feb 3, 2003)

10mfan said:


> He said he used it for a couple of years with his $4000 saxophone, and never really liked it, but it was "good for the money".


This is the crux of Mark's post and I agree with him that this doesn't make any sense, or maybe I should say it doesn't make sense to _me_. Sure, not everyone can afford, or needs to buy the most expensive mpc out there, but to me it's a waste of money to buy a mpc you don't really like just because it's inexpensive. I don't get that at all. Especially if you can afford a $4000 sax!

To me, the mpc is just as important as the sax. Maybe even more important. And yet even an expensive mpc is considerably less money than the horn. Which is not to say you need the most expensive mpc out there, but I'd at least want something that works well for me. It's one thing if you're a total beginner and don't really know what you like in a mpc, but once you have some experience and a good idea of what works for you both in terms of response and tone, why not get the best you can afford?

Finally, if you go mainly on getting a 'deal' and buy an inexpensive mpc that you don't really like all that much, one you probably can't even sell, eventually you'll buy another mpc, a more expensive one, and now you've spent more than you would have if you'd bought the more expensive one in the first place.

Of course we all have our priorities when it comes to spending money. I've never bought a brand new auto and I don't buy $100 bottles of wine (much as I love red wine, I can get by with a $12 bottle just fine), but when it comes to a mpc, I don't want to settle for second best. That doesn't mean spending $1000 on a vintage 'collector's mpc', but rather spending less than half that on a top quality mpc that works for me.

Just my opinion!


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Hi guys,
I was away all day and now got a chance to check out this post. 

First of all, I’m glad people are responding. Im just throwing out a discussion, that’s all. I appreciate hearing all your views.

If you didn’t really read through my original post in its entirety, that’s OK. Just take the time to go back and reread it.

Finding something you can enjoy, and not settling, is really what the post was about. 
It’s about not settling for something that causes displeasure, and trying to justify it by saying it was “good for the money”. If it’s not good for you, it’s not good for you no matter what the price is. 
The person wrote me and said all these bad things about his prior mouthpiece, but said it was “good for the money”. Those words I’ve heard many times from people and I just can't understand why people settle when it comes to their own sound. If you don't have the finances to try a bunch of pieces, I understand. I just hope you all find that great piece for yourselves.
It doesn’t mean you have to run out and buy a $400 mouthpiece, because that will not be the answer for everyone either. For some people, it will be, but that wasn't the point of the post. "Good" mouthpieces come with many different names on them in many different price ranges. A "good" mouthpiece for you will not be a good mouthpiece for someone else. 
Therefore, The goal as I was trying to get to in my original post, was to focus on getting something that works great for you, that gives you the sound that you want, and is good because you feel it allows you to do what you want. If it doesn't, to not justify that by saying its ok, just because it was inexpensive. To settle on a mouthpiece and not be happy with it, but settle with it because it was inexpensive, doesn’t make sense to me as a player. That’s all I was trying to say. 
If anyone is unhappy with the mouthpiece they are playing, I recommend that they check out other pieces to find something that will give them happiness. There’s no reason to settle on something just because it was at a bargain price. If you happen to find something at a bargain price and it plays great for you, that’s fantastic!

When this person said that it was “good for the money” and had nothing positive to say about his experience with it, my initial reaction was that it wasn’t good for the money. It’s not about how much money you spend on a mouthpiece. 
Not sure how that got misconstrued, because my original post was very clear about that. 
My mentioning the price of the saxophone that this person bought, was an example that he spent big money on the horn, and then settled for a mouthpiece for quite some time, that didn’t even make him happy.... and that should be ok because it was inexpensive??? Not to me. 

It just doesn’t make sense to me and never will. I would want a mouthpiece that made me happy, that I really enjoyed. A piece that gave me just what I wanted. 
When it comes to the saxophone, for me, sound is EVERYTHING. I’ve just seen this scenario so many times that it frustrates me. My mouthpieces or 30 other guys mouthpieces may not be the answer for YOU in particular, so you need to find what works best for you. 

All I’m saying, is I hope you aren't settling for something that’s not giving you pleasure, and justifying that it’s OK, because you got a good deal on it. 

If it’s not good for you and you don’t enjoy it, then it’s not good no matter what the price was.
Thats just how I see it. You don't have to agree with me, thats just how I personally feel.

Thanks, Mark


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## jgreiner (Sep 20, 2006)

Dave Pollack said:


> This will be my last post on this thread because I'm wasting my time, and it's the reason I don't post here too often anymore (lots of people have messaged me asking to post more, but oh well).
> 
> When setting up your sound on saxophone, the mouthpiece/reed/lig should be first. It's what I teach all of my students and it's what 99.9% of people I've talked to say works best. In this case the guy bought a $4k horn but said he "didn't like the sound of it and didn't like the feel of the beak." Mark was just wondering why someone would spend that much money on a saxophone but not have the other stuff set up first.
> 
> ...


Mic drop......


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## jd (Feb 2, 2003)

tony51 said:


> Some people can't afford a $400 mouthpiece so they have to buy a $100 (or less) mouthpiece. This is unlikely to be as good as the $400 mouthpiece, so they hope to one that's good for the money, it doesn't seem such a difficult concept to understand.


I don't know about that. I don't think spending big money equates to a better mouthpiece. Money kind of has nothing to do with if a piece is going to fit you right or sound good. yes i agree people buy what they can afford. really not hard to understand. What is hard to understand is why people would spend 400-600 on a mouthpiece that they have never tried without a return policy . Thats what I don't get


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## B Flat (Mar 26, 2011)

Just buy a Metallite and a Klangbogen, you really don’t need anything else.
Except maybe a huge steel hook on your neck strap.
And a ligature made from Tibetan yak embryo scrotums that have been cryogenically treated.


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## Dr G (Feb 2, 2003)

jd said:


> I don't know about that. I don't think spending big money equates to a better mouthpiece. Money kind of has nothing to do with if a piece is going to fit you right or sound good. yes i agree people buy what they can afford. really not hard to understand. *What is hard to understand is why people would spend 400-600 on a mouthpiece that they have never tried without a return policy . Thats what I don't get*


Mic drop.


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## jd (Feb 2, 2003)

When it comes to mouthpieces money has very little to do with anything. It’s not like other products where more expensive means better. The fact is that 100 dollar Meyer , vandoren ,used whatever may be the best piece for you. I’ve tried all the designer pieces and some played horribly for me .its all so personal. I’ve played 50 dollar used mouthpieces that were played far better for me then 500.00 dollar pieces so to assume more money means better doesn’t apply to mouthpieces like it does to most other products. Right now after all my experimentation I use a 100.00 alto piece and a 200.00 tenor piece . Wouldn’t trade them for way more expensive pieces. I’m sure lots of us have stories about how a cheap piece worked great for them .


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## mishmellow (Aug 2, 2014)

I hear that.



jd said:


> tony51 said:
> 
> 
> > Some people can't afford a $400 mouthpiece so they have to buy a $100 (or less) mouthpiece. This is unlikely to be as good as the $400 mouthpiece, so they hope to one that's good for the money, it doesn't seem such a difficult concept to understand.
> ...


The difficulty for some players is the search for that mouthpiece when there is so much variation in styles of pieces even in the sub $200 range. You can buy 10 pieces and not find the one, just the one you like the most. And because the player is what varies the most, my opinion is that mouthpiece preferences are more subjective than horn preference. People find what they think they like more quickly with a horn than with mouthpieces.

That's not to say that practicing, mouthpiece and reed setup aren't more important. It's just how people end up with pieces they're not as satisfied with.

I'm relatively new to tenor, and I haven't found the piece I love yet - I wasn't expecting it to be so different from alto and baritone. But I have a better sense of what kind of horn I'm looking for because of my experience with other saxes. Plus, I can play other people's saxes more readily than I can play their mouthpiece unless I dig through their collection!


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## jgreiner (Sep 20, 2006)

Dr G said:


> Mic drop.


Yeah, that too. ;-)


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## Alain Gen (Dec 2, 2013)

So, Mark's customer said he didn't really like his former mouthpiece and only sticked to it because it was "good for the money"...
If he really meant what he said, it doesn't make sense (at least from someone who had bought a quite expensive sax). 

But maybe (just an hypothesis, and a different perspective) he was just dissing his older setup. When some people switch to something new, they have a childish need to convince themselves that they made the right choice by badmouthing what they had previously.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

That is definitely true. I have seen that many times. 
Something will always be better or worse for you when you are comparing things to one another.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

B Flat said:


> Just buy a Metallite and a Klangbogen, you really don't need anything else.
> Except maybe a huge steel hook on your neck strap.
> And a ligature made from Tibetan yak embryo scrotums that have been cryogenically treated.


I have not tried the scrotum ligatures yet, but I heard they make you play with a more ballsy sound. I guess it's subjective but that's the rumor.


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## jazzznbluezzz (Aug 1, 2006)

It is not only a question if a mouthpiece plays well for you or suits you best but also if it is 
the right combination with the saxophone you have. Regardless of it being a $4000 or a $600 beater.
My experience is that even some high priced mouthpieces did not work al all on some of the saxes that I had.
While they played much better on others.

Besides that I often wonder if the general assumption of 'more expensive is always better' applies with every mouthpiece.
I am inclined to think it is not from my own experiences. Although it may be the case for cars and saxophones. We are entering the world of marketing here. 'Expensive is good'. I bet some hype and reputations are built on pricing and imaginary market value. Which brings up another thread topic: Why are a lot of mass produced mouthpieces so expensive? Anyway I have tried and kept several 'good for the money' mouthpieces that turned out 'surprisingly well for the money' (I am talking mostly used and vintage mpc's here). While I also tried some pricey boutique's that I sold again after the honeymoon was over.


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## B Flat (Mar 26, 2011)

10mfan said:


> I have not tried the scrotum ligatures yet, but I heard they make you play with a more ballsy sound. I guess it's subjective but that's the rumor.


You could say they're a "hair" more "ballsy" but you have to be gentle with them, because if you over tighten them it causes squeaking.
Also you can only play low notes on warm days.


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## jazzznbluezzz (Aug 1, 2006)

jd said:


> I don't know about that. I don't think spending big money equates to a better mouthpiece. Money kind of has nothing to do with if a piece is going to fit you right or sound good. yes i agree people buy what they can afford. really not hard to understand. What is hard to understand is why people would spend 400-600 on a mouthpiece that they have never tried without a return policy . Thats what I don't get


I agree.


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## jazzznbluezzz (Aug 1, 2006)

jd said:


> When it comes to mouthpieces money has very little to do with anything. It's not like other products where more expensive means better. The fact is that 100 dollar Meyer , vandoren ,used whatever may be the best piece for you. I've tried all the designer pieces and some played horribly for me .its all so personal. I've played 50 dollar used mouthpieces that were played far better for me then 500.00 dollar pieces so to assume more money means better doesn't apply to mouthpieces like it does to most other products. Right now after all my experimentation I use a 100.00 alto piece and a 200.00 tenor piece . Wouldn't trade them for way more expensive pieces. I'm sure lots of us have stories about how a cheap piece worked great for them .


None of the mouthpieces I play now are over $200.00. The one I prefer most right now, an original Vandoren Perfecta, was even way under $100.00. I think that is the great fun of it. Of course no return policies on these. But they won't break the bank either or decrease in value dramatically when I decide to sell them again. Which I think will not happen soon.


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## 2phunkey4u (Mar 14, 2018)

jazzznbluezzz said:


> Why are a lot of mass produced mouthpieces so expensive?


Dunno about that. "Expensive" starts at above 200$ for me. I somehow got anchored by D'Addario and their Select Jazz mouthpiece. It is the priciest of the mass-produced mouthpieces below 200$ and I have a lot to like about it, that is why I did not think it was that expensive upon reflecting my expectations and my budget constraints. The only mass-produced mouthpieces above that 200$ price point are made from metal (Berg Larsen, Vandoren, Otto Link). I am pretty sure it takes more effort to work on metal, resulting in higher asking prices.


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## Sofiane (Oct 14, 2012)

You guys should ask Charlie Parker if the saxophone or the mouthpiece is important ... at all 😅


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## Wonko (Apr 12, 2018)

My take on mouthpieces.
To start, I used the mouthpiece that my teacher recommended (Selmer S80 C*)
After a couple of years, I felt like this mouthpiece was not completely suiting my needs. Went shopping for another one, ended up with a Selmer Soloist D. Was OK for another couple of years.
About a year ago I felt like I was ready for another step in the mouthpiece field. I felt that my mouthpiece didn't allow me to express myself the way I wanted to. I now use an Otto Link HR 7. I feel like I will be playing this mouthpiece for quite a few years before I grow out of it (maybe I'll never grow out of it).

To summarize: 
If you have a mouthpiece that meets your requirements (whatever the price), then you are fine.
If you feel like you are held back by your mouthpiece, go looking for one that suits your needs (within your budget of course, maybe get a second hand one).
Once you choose a certain mouthpiece, work on getting it to work for you. I needed more than 6 months to get used to my latest mouthpiece.

Being good for the money is always a good thing.
When you can't get the sound you want from your mouthpiece, it's just no good (whatever the money).


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Wonko said:


> To summarize:
> If you have a mouthpiece that meets your requirements (whatever the price), then you are fine.
> If you feel like you are held back by your mouthpiece, go looking for one that suits your needs (within your budget of course, maybe get a second hand one).
> Once you choose a certain mouthpiece, work on getting it to work for you. I needed more than 6 months to get used to my latest mouthpiece.
> ...


Good morning from sunny Florida!!!
I agree with everything you just said above. I feel the exact same way.
This was never a post about more expensive mouthpieces or less expensive mouthpieces being better. What's best for everybody is different no matter what the name or price is on the piece.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

B Flat said:


> You could say they're a "hair" more "ballsy" but you have to be gentle with them, because if you over tighten them it causes squeaking.
> Also you can only play low notes on warm days.


I fully understand. I think the advice of being gentle with them is always a good way to approach things. 
Perhaps the altissimo notes would come out better on the cold days?


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## Dr G (Feb 2, 2003)

jd said:


> When it comes to mouthpieces money has very little to do with anything.


Not true. Higher price is what makes them more expensive.


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## turf3 (Mar 9, 2015)

Well, I certainly agree that theoretically one should start with the mouthpiece and reed selection and then move to the horn, and also that in theory you want to put the most cost and effort (proportionally speaking) further up the tone generation chain, in other words in the MP and reed.

But in the actual real world, you have to have a saxophone on hand to be able to assess different mouthpieces and reeds. If you're flush with cash, why not buy a high quality horn, that you know won't be an issue, even before you get the MP/reed thing figured out? Then as time goes on, you can try mouthpieces ranging from the very expensive to the inexpensive and make your decision.

So while it can seem incongrous to have a $4000 sax and be playing on a $50 mouthpiece, remember the sax has to be there first. 

I don't really understand the angst over the particular vocabulary words chosen "good value for money". I understand it clearly; it wasn't very good, but it was cheap and it worked OK enough till I could come up with funds and time to investigate something better. Last I looked there was no rule that you have to upgrade your equipment in any particular order.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Dr G,
Lol. That is true.

I think the statement should be, “When It comes to mouthpieces, playability and likability have nothing to do with prices”.
It’s going to be different for everyone.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Turf3,
For me, “good for the money” should mean that someone is enjoying the mouthpiece, and that they got it at a good price. That’s a winning combination. 

For me, it shouldn’t mean that someone is using a mouthpiece they don’t like at all, but it was inexpensive, so its fine. 

That’s all I’ve been trying to express.


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## turf3 (Mar 9, 2015)

"I am driving a rusted out 74 Vega. It burns oil and it's got terrible pickup, and the AC is broken, and the springs are sticking up through the seats, but it gets me where I need to go. I paid $50 for it."

Good for the money, or how else would you describe this?


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## Sacks Of Phones (Jan 26, 2017)

turf3 said:


> "I am driving a rusted out 74 Vega. It burns oil and it's got terrible pickup, and the AC is broken, and the springs are sticking up through the seats, but it gets me where I need to go. I paid $50 for it."
> 
> Good for the money, or how else would you describe this?


Yes, but where are you going, cross-country? A car you describe would be suitable for short trips.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

I wouldn’t call something thats rusted, burns oil, has terrible pick up, and no AC , as good for the money.
If that works for you, that’s good enough. 


The fact that it’s running and getting you around, I would probably describe as “lucky”.


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## JayeLID (Feb 12, 2009)

turf3 said:


> "I am driving a rusted out 74 Vega. It burns oil and it's got terrible pickup, and the AC is broken, and the springs are sticking up through the seats, but it gets me where I need to go. I paid $50 for it."


Niiiiiiice ! :headbang:

We of course talkin' the GT, I assume ?


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## JL (Feb 3, 2003)

turf3 said:


> I don't really understand the angst over the particular vocabulary words chosen "good value for money". I understand it clearly; it wasn't very good, but it was cheap and it worked OK enough till I could come up with funds and time to investigate something better. Last I looked there was no rule that you have to upgrade your equipment in any particular order.


Yeah turf, I'd agree with that. However, it points up how there are different interpretations of what the guy with the mpc said. And that's probably why there's been some inconsistency in the responses here. What you said is perfectly logical, but here's what Mark says the guy told him:

_"He said he didn't like the sound of it and didn't like the feel of the beak-- but it was good for the money."
_
Maybe I'm taking it too literally, but that statement seems illogical to me. The first part, not liking the sound or the feel of the mpc strongly suggests it's not good at all. So then, how can it be "good" in any sense regardless of what it cost?

Again, I'm probably taking it too much at face value, but that's how I read it and it makes no sense to me.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

JL said:


> _"He said he didn't like the sound of it and didn't like the feel of the beak-- but it was good for the money."
> _
> Maybe I'm taking it too literally, but that statement seems illogical to me. The first part, not liking the sound or the feel of the mpc strongly suggests it's not good at all. So then, how can it be "good" in any sense regardless of what it cost?


Thats what I'm sayin! It makes absolutely no sense to me, as a saxophone player, where your sound is EVERYTHING!
It cant be "good for the money" if its not "good" to you at all. Paying a cheap price shouldn't make it acceptable if you don't dig it.
People can disagree, but thats how I see it.

Nothing more I can really add here that I haven't said already.


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## Nefertiti (Feb 2, 2003)

Sofiane said:


> You guys should ask Charlie Parker if the saxophone or the mouthpiece is important ... at all &#55357;&#56837;


It's very important! The more they are worth the more drug money you can get when you need it........


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## Alain Gen (Dec 2, 2013)

10mfan said:


> Thats what I'm sayin! It makes absolutely no sense to me, as a saxophone player, where your sound is EVERYTHING!
> It cant be "good for the money" if its not "good" to you at all.
> People can disagree, but thats how I see it.
> 
> Nothing more I can really add here that I haven't said already.


We don't know the mouthpiece the customer used. It could range to a $20 to a $350 mouthpiece and its quality could range from "terrible" to "beautifully made, not objectively inferior to a 10mFan mouthpiece".

Who knows: the customer could be a GAS monster. After switching to a $15000 horn and a $1200 mouthpiece he could also dismiss his current setup.


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## Nefertiti (Feb 2, 2003)

Sofiane said:


> You guys should ask Charlie Parker if the saxophone or the mouthpiece is important ... at all &#55357;&#56837;


As I think more about this, is a guy with a severe drug addiction that hocks is equipment for drugs the guy that you would want to ask about the value of things? Just saying.........


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## Nefertiti (Feb 2, 2003)

10mfan said:


> Thats what I'm sayin! It makes absolutely no sense to me, as a saxophone player, where your sound is EVERYTHING!
> It cant be "good for the money" if its not "good" to you at all. Paying a cheap price shouldn't make it acceptable if you don't dig it.
> People can disagree, but thats how I see it.
> 
> Nothing more I can really add here that I haven't said already.


At the same time, I talk to many people online who play synthetic reeds. The majority of them say the same thing "They are not as good as a great cane reed but they are great for the money!"


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## jgreiner (Sep 20, 2006)

Nefertiti said:


> As I think more about this, is a guy with a severe drug addiction that hocks is equipment for drugs the guy that you would want to ask about the value of things? Just saying.........


Sir, please refrain from stating anything factual. Not only in this thread, but the forum in general.

Thank you.


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## malteof (Aug 6, 2018)

Nefertiti said:


> At the same time, I talk to many people online who play synthetic reeds. The majority of them say the same thing "They are not as good as a great cane reed but they are great for the money!"


I've never tried synthetic reeds, but I'm guessing it's less about cost and more about convenience.


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## JL (Feb 3, 2003)

Nefertiti said:


> It's very important! The more they are worth the more drug money you can get when you need it........


I was thinking along the same lines. 

Bird was reputed to hock his horn on a regular basis but generally hung onto to his mpc. That's the 'lore' so we can take it with a grain of salt. But it makes sense that he'd hock the horn and keep the mpc because he could get a lot more $$ for the horn; probably couldn't get enough hocking the mpc for more than one fix!


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## jazzznbluezzz (Aug 1, 2006)

And like it has been said before. In the end you all sound like you on whatever mouthpiece you play and feel
comfortable on.


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## Sofiane (Oct 14, 2012)

Nefertiti said:


> Sofiane said:
> 
> 
> > You guys should ask Charlie Parker if the saxophone or the mouthpiece is important ... at all ��
> ...


Not that, but how he made it to play and record such beautiful music without playing what he would want to and or the best top of the line gear at that time.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

jazzznbluezzz said:


> And like it has been said before. In the end you all sound like you on whatever mouthpiece you play and feel
> comfortable on.


THAT is the biggest ******** line of all time!!!!

To anyone who thinks this way: 
Go get a 1930s hard rubber 2 tip opening tenor mouthpiece and play it. Send a recording. 
Then go get a Guardala Super King .120 tip and send a recording on that.


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## pontius (Nov 7, 2013)

There is a guy at this open jam I've been to. His horn is probably worth at least $6000 (mark vi). His mouthpiece is a modern boutique slant copy that I recognized. It goes for around $500 upwards I think. So here is a guy who has done his due diligence and forked out some dough for a mouthpiece that is worthy of his expensive legendary horn. God he sounds horrible.

I imagine these are the kind of people that keep some mouthpiece makers going.


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## jgreiner (Sep 20, 2006)

pontius said:


> There is a guy at this open jam I've been to. His horn is probably worth at least $6000 (mark vi). His mouthpiece is a modern boutique slant copy that I recognized. It goes for around $500 upwards I think. So here is a guy who has done his due diligence and forked out some dough for a mouthpiece that is worthy of his expensive legendary horn. God he sounds horrible.
> 
> I imagine these are the kind of people that keep some mouthpiece makers going.


One thing you now know for sure..... He has a SOLID day gig. ;-)


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## Grumps (Feb 3, 2003)

10mfan said:


> So I get another one of these emails this morning and it's a pet peeve of mine. Some guy writes me to tell me that he picked up one of my mouthpieces in the UK and loves it to death. I asked him what he used before and without me naming a name, he said he used a certain mouthpiece and it was "good for the money".


It was just his way of telling you that he thinks your mouthpieces are overpriced. Not that I agree or know what they cost, because I never bought one. I just know people.

Let it go.


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## JL (Feb 3, 2003)

Grumps said:


> It was just his way of telling you that he thinks your mouthpieces are overpriced.


Hey Grumps, I didn't take it that way, but then neither of us talked to the guy (Mark did, of course). But I have to say, I've bought and played a couple different models of the 10MFan mpcs and I can say for certain, that for me, they are not overpriced; in fact they're something of a bargain considering how well they play (for me).

There are some much more expensive mpcs out there (both new and vintage) that I haven't tried so I can't say if those are overpriced, but I don't need to find out because I'm no longer looking for a 'better' mpc. I know I'm not willing to shell out $1000 (or whatever they go for) for a Guardala.... We all have to make our own decisions on these matters.

You're right about the fact that people have all sorts of ideas, valid or not, about what is overpriced and what is not.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Grumps said:


> It was just his way of telling you that he thinks your mouthpieces are overpriced. Not that I agree or know what they cost, because I never bought one. I just know people.
> 
> Let it go.


That was the oddest response from you. 
I don't even understand how you would get that from what I wrote?
He never once mentioned anything about the price of my mouthpieces at all.

He ended up getting one of my mouthpieces and loved it to death. He didn't have any issue with the price whatsoever. He was just so thrilled to get a mouthpiece that did just what he wanted, and he wanted to write me and tell me that.


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## malteof (Aug 6, 2018)

10mfan said:


> That was the oddest response from you.
> I don';t even understand how you would get that from what I wrote?
> He never once mentioned anything about the price of my mouthpieces at all.


My theory is that Grumps gets off on spreading his negativity and seeing how people react. We should really just ignore him I guess.


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## Reet McVouty (Dec 3, 2008)

Dave Pollack said:


> Oh absolutely - I see terrible players buying new gear all the time in hopes it will "make them sound better."


Sounds just like golf to me. I once told an extremely high handicapper that just purchased the latest and greatest set of clubs that his money would be better spent on a series of lessons. He just looked at me like I was from Mars ...


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## Reet McVouty (Dec 3, 2008)

Sofiane said:


> You guys should ask Charlie Parker if the saxophone or the mouthpiece is important ... at all ?


https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...-Smithsonian&p=4088874&viewfull=1#post4088874


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## Saxaholic (Feb 4, 2003)

malteof said:


> My theory is that Grumps gets off on spreading his negativity and seeing how people react. We should really just ignore him I guess.


I agree. I have no idea what he means. Price was never mentioned in the original post. Clearly Grumps doesn't "know people" because the dude bought a 10mfan piece.

I concur with Dave Pollack earlier in this thread, chased off by the usual trolls. The mouthpiece is way more important than the horn. If you're spending thousands on a horn, you should be spending whatever you need to get a mouthpiece that works best for you and gives you the most joy. Whether that's $10 or $1,000.

Someone to say "I don't like anything about the piece, but it's good for the money" makes zero sense. Try a different piece in the same price point until you find one you like. There's so many options out there.

We are lucky to be saxophone players; we have so many options that all of us can find great joy in our equipment. Money comes and goes; joy is priceless.

- Saxaholic


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## Manitou (Dec 11, 2015)

Saxaholic said:


> ...The mouthpiece is way more important than the horn...


???? so you're saying that folks paying big bucks for a selmer or ... should instead buy a chinese horn and spend their money on a better mpc? clearly the same mpc, good or bad, will not sound the same on every horn.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

I think this is the part of the conversation where we start going in circles......


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Reet McVouty said:


> Sounds just like golf to me. I once told an extremely high handicapper that just purchased the latest and greatest set of clubs that his money would be better spent on a series of lessons. He just looked at me like I was from Mars ...


I can totally relate to the golf comparison. I have friends who do the same thing and never take lessons, and never get better.
It's the same mistakes every time we go out and play. They shake their heads when they chip poorly, (like they can't believe they just did that), yet they have bad technique and do it poorly ALL the time.


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## Sacks Of Phones (Jan 26, 2017)

10mfan said:


> I think this is the part of the conversation where we start going in circles......


Don't worry, only 126 more posts saying the same thing.


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## Manitou (Dec 11, 2015)

10mfan said:


> I think this is the part of the conversation where we start going in circles......


mark, just wondering if you've ever asked someone who has made this comment to explain it.


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## Sofiane (Oct 14, 2012)

Reet McVouty said:


> Sofiane said:
> 
> 
> > You guys should ask Charlie Parker if the saxophone or the mouthpiece is important ... at all ?
> ...


Yes I know, but despite the material he could still play and sound like a genius


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Hi Manitou,
He spent a pretty good amount of money on a saxophone but never got around to replacing the mouthpiece that he didn’t really like. I’ve seen it before. Doesn’t make any sense to me as a player, but people do weird stuff. Sometimes people just settle on something and figure it’s good enough. I’m sure we have all been guilty of doing that ourselves. 

In another golf related story, I have a friend who couldn’t hit his long irons to save his life, for years and years. I kept telling him to try the hybrids that are out there because that might help him. He just refused and kept using his long irons and it got him nowhere. One day when we were going to play golf together, I made sure I put a couple of extra hybrids that I had, in my golf bag for him to try. Even though he told me he wasn’t interested at all, I just knew it was time. Well, needless to say, I ended up giving him both of those hybrids, because he hit them really well. It changed his whole game and his outlook on golf. It didn’t take long for him to get incredibly comfortable with them.

Apparently, this sax player finally got to the point where he wanted to find something that would be better for him. Not sure why people settle for a long period with gear that doesn’t fit them right, but it happens....often. I’m just glad he found something that he enjoys and he can hopefully start to make music that makes him happy. That’s the goal for everybody.

Until you make the commitment to make a change with something, everything will remain the same. 

As they say, “You aren’t going to hit the lottery, if you don’t buy a ticket”.

I hope everybody here finds the gear that makes them happy. Music is a true gift and you should be enjoying it fully.


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## rzzzzz (Aug 29, 2011)

Dr G said:


> Does any really need to have a "rare" or "vintage" mouthpiece?


i'm grateful that a Meyer Bros NY tumbled out of the moldy case of the old horn i bought from a local shop. don't know if i need it, 'cause it's the only alto piece i've ever played.
i really do need a large chambered piece for soprano, and the vintage Buescher pickle, refaced, fits like a glove.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

I used to love when that happened, when I was buying loads of horns. 
It happens more than people think. That’s a wonderful find! Congratulations and enjoy.
You may have found an alto piece that you really enjoy to play by accident, but now you have something you can have fun with. That’s the goal!


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