# King Curtis out front with a big band!



## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

King Curtis playing with a big band with Jackie Gleason conducting.

I've always been a huge fan of King Curtis!!!


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## JL (Feb 3, 2003)

Yeah, King Curtis could rip it up!

Thanks for posting that clip, Mark.


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## tombg14 (Jul 4, 2007)

I've never done a deep dive into the rock/r&b sax world, but have always been a huge fan of everything King Curtis. Also, at 1:47 - I'm not sure if he's mimicking playing a violin or a guitar (I think violin), but either way it's great.


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## chilehed (Sep 17, 2013)

tombg14 said:


> Also, at 1:47 - I'm not sure if he's mimicking playing a violin or a guitar (I think violin), but either way it's great.


Sure was! Might he have been false-fingering by brushing the side keys? I can't try it right now, my wife's on a conference call.

I think K.C.'s gonna be on heavy rotation this afternoon.


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## 1saxman (Feb 3, 2003)

This stuff is hard to describe. First, with the brushing motion on the side key, he was doing a trick on three or four ascending notes with the side key between the rising notes, as the last note in eighth note triplets with the first two notes tied and the last note with the top side key. Later, he was using a side key in a trill on a false fingering while growling. right before that, he was on a low note but doing false tonguing on eighth notes by either sliding tongue over tip of mouthpiece or the more conventional way of 'ghost-noting' - sounds pretty much the same. What a sound he had! Try to get a tone like that to be recorded on live TV 60 years ago and still sounds rich and full today. This show was before KC changed to a hard rubber Berg that honestly sounded pretty much the same to me. He was known to play 120/2 up to 140/2.
After a lifetime of listening to KC, I think this particular performance was not his best. He was nervous and his ideas were not really hanging together. This was big time, prime-time TV on the Jackie Gleason show and it was early in his career. Listen to this, and you can tell why I say that. I think he put on a new reed for this record to make sure he nailed the high notes. The record is so long that his chops started to sag a bit, but he just pushed harder - the man had chops of iron.
King Curtis - Instant Groove - Foot Pattin - YouTube
If you watch the next video which is 'Memphis Soul Stew' live, watch him forget to put the soprano down and pick up the tenor. He says 'Almost forgot my horn' LOL!
"Memphis Soul Stew" (live) King Curtis & The Kingpins - YouTube


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## StylesBitchly (Dec 14, 2020)

I loved King Curtis. He was in a class by himself. It was a huge thing for a guy like Jackie Gleason to hire some black musicians back when that was recorded. That was back when they had a black and white union. This is one of my favorite recordings of the King. Great band, and great playing when he comes in. He had soul. King Curtis told a story when he played a solo.


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## wanderso (Dec 19, 2018)

Why the 17 strings? That wasn't cheap. Does it add anything to the sound?


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## pontius (Nov 7, 2013)

And Gleason once again shows that you can do just about any activity with a lit cigarette in your hand.


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

1saxman said:


> This stuff is hard to describe. First, with the brushing motion on the side key, he was doing a trick on three or four ascending notes with the side key between the rising notes,


Couldn't we just describe that as the famous so-called* Adderley Trill*? or variation thereof?


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## soybean (Oct 26, 2007)

wanderso said:


> Why the 17 strings? That wasn't cheap...


 yes, and six trombones, six trumpets, etc. This was a huge band. Gleason was sort of known for his string sound. He made a lot of albums (vinyl) back in those days and most of them featured lush string arrangements.


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## StylesBitchly (Dec 14, 2020)

Pete Thomas said:


> Couldn't we just describe that as the famous so-called* Adderley Trill*? or variation thereof?


I think that is the "KC" trill, although it is not really a trill in the true sense of the word. I heard Cannonball use his version in the 60's, but also heard Sal Nestico use it on tenor...same effect as Cannonball. Not sure who came up with it first. No matter what you call it, or how it is played, it does sound impressive, and catches your ear. Maybe we should go with the C/KC/SN untrill trill effect. This is getting confusing. Can we just call it "the jazz sax, side key trill effect? Origin unknown.


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## Hassles (Jun 11, 2011)

The Soul of King Curtis, by King Curtis


34 track album




curtisousley.bandcamp.com


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## soybean (Oct 26, 2007)

StylesBitchly said:


> ... No matter what you call it, or how it is played, it does sound impressive, and catches your ear...


 Illinois Jacquet played this lick back in the 1940s long before cannonball but I don't know if he's the one that invented it.


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## John Laughter (Feb 3, 2003)

*"Why the 17 strings? That wasn't cheap. Does it add anything to the sound?" *

I believe that you will find that Jackie Gleason (himself a composer and conductor) hired Sammy Spear to conduct the Miami TV orchestra which always had strings in the early 60's. Many of Jackie's guest singers had recorded with a full orchestra which included a string section so Mr. Gleason always went first class.

King Curtis just happened to be a guest so I would imagine that out of courtesy and respect the arranger scored his song to include strings which was a good thing.


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## mrpeebee (Jan 29, 2010)

soybean said:


> Illinois Jacquet played this lick back in the 1940s long before cannonball but I don't know if he's the one that invented it.


Yes, and Jacquet probably copied it from Herschel Evans or Arnett Cobb (with whom he played on alto in the Milt Larkins band, while Cobb was playing tenor).


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## soybean (Oct 26, 2007)

Interesting theory. Herschel is more likely than Cobb. Cobb played very few sax-centric licks.


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## mrpeebee (Jan 29, 2010)

soybean said:


> Interesting theory. Herschel is more likely than Cobb. Cobb played very few sax-centric licks.


I actually think Cobb is more likely. As mentioned the very young Jacquet played alto in the >Milt Larkin Orchestra<, where Cobb (older than Jacquet and already a mature tenor player and thus a kind of influence for him) already played a very strong (Texas) tenor style. Hampton asked Cobb for the tenor before he did ask Jacquet, but Cobb refuced because his mother was against it and Milt Larkin was as a father for him (he also already did refuse an offer of Basie to replace Herschel after he died because of the same reason). So when Cobb refused, Hampton asked Jacquet, but he had to switch from alto to tenor and he had to play like Cobb.


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## soybean (Oct 26, 2007)

mrpeebee said:


> ... Hampton asked Cobb for the tenor before he did ask Jacquet, but Cobb refused because his mother was against it...


That is kinda funny. His mother thought the tenor was a bad influence?


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## mrpeebee (Jan 29, 2010)

It actually had to do with the relation certain swing bands had with the mafia, who often owned the clubs where the Big Bands did play. Cobb's mother was very protective, so she didn't want him to be in those places.


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## Frankmsax (Jan 19, 2009)

10mfan, thanks for posting. I never saw that and I am a huge fan of King Curtis and a huge fan of Jackie Gleason also.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

My pleasure, bro! 
I wasn’t looking to put up the greatest thing I’ve ever heard from him, just wanted to put up something that was unique that maybe people haven’t seen.

I’m glad you dug it. I did too.


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## Watsonp143 (Feb 14, 2004)

mrpeebee said:


> It actually had to do with the relation certain swing bands had with the mafia, who often owned the clubs where the Big Bands did play. Cobb's mother was very protective, so she didn't want him to be in those places.


a lot of southern mothers were pentecostal or fundamentalist and did not want their children playing the "devil's music"


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## mrpeebee (Jan 29, 2010)

Watsonp143 said:


> a lot of southern mothers were pentecostal or fundamentalist and did not want their children playing the "devil's music"


From what I understood she accepted him playing Jazz (devil's music!), but she trusted his bandleader Milt Larkins, who was as a kind of father for him and mostly played locally (not like Basie and Hampton's band).


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