# Give our admins a break!



## Sigmund451 (Aug 8, 2003)

II dislike change as much or more than the next guy but there are folks here just hammering the Sotw admin staff. Some of these guys are typing their fingers to the bone to help get things done. At the same time they are taking the brunt of the perceived blame.

Yes, the marketplace is a mess, no one likes ads, the new format is new and sometimes buggy.

Face reality, its not gonna change back. The more you want it to, the longer its going to take to adjust. This is still SOTW and its made upof people, not computer programs. So my advice is to let go and start posting about music, cooking,or whatever. Heck, with covid, politics and the platform change a thread with some really good jokes would be welcome right now. Life isnt easy right now. Dont make it harder.


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## Benjamin Allen (Aug 24, 2014)

Sigmund451 said:


> II dislike change as much or more than the next guy but there are folks here just hammering the Sotw admin staff. Some of these guys are typing their fingers to the bone to help get things done. At the same time they are taking the brunt of the perceived blame.
> 
> Yes, the marketplace is a mess, no one likes ads, the new format is new and sometimes buggy.
> 
> Face reality, its not gonna change back. The more you want it to, the longer its going to take to adjust. This is still SOTW and its made upof people, not computer programs. So my advice is to let go and start posting about music, cooking,or whatever. Heck, with covid, politics and the platform change a thread with some really good jokes would be welcome right now. Life isnt easy right now. Dont make it harder.


Well put, Phil. Thanks for leading on this issue.


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## bandmommy (Jul 4, 2007)

It was a shock and I did voice my initial displeasure. 
After a few days it's getting easier to find my way around. 
Thanks to all of our mods for trying their hardest to make this transition as painless as they can. 
After the grumbling its not that bad. 🙂


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## Dr G (Feb 2, 2003)

Looks like a change is gonna come: November 2020 New Marketplace (now Classifieds) policy

Now I'll get blasted for crossposting. You can't please all the people all the time.

Don't forget to tip your favorite moderators!

Tip Jar!


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## Sigmund451 (Aug 8, 2003)

I voiced my opinions and suggestions too. Nothing changed and I simply reminded myself that thisnforum is not a democracy,,,it is owned. I can make the choice to come or go. I think if we just take a deep breath and get back to forum business things will improve while still pointing out and working through the bugs. 
continuing to throw fits just breeds discontent. And as I ssuggested, there is no lack of thatoutside of the forum.


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## pitsen3 (Apr 3, 2006)

For me, I see no real impediment in the new software. This comes from a infrequent contributor. However I browse here every day. I guess I am fairly compliant and really don't have any skin in the game except I have learned so much in the last fourteen years.


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## Hassles (Jun 11, 2011)

Frustrations manifest themselves in a myriad of ways either when your trying to perfect your tone or trying to acclimatise to the new SOTW look and feel. Some of us are having a really bad experience while others are not. Advice given is not always successful or applicable and its difficult to know how to assist those who are struggling. SOTW is US and I would hate to think we may lose some of our members. Perhaps those who are struggling the most may like to take a break in hope things may change for the better during their absence. Like you mr Phil-Tone - I don't do frustrations well so I empathise with many here who are struggling.


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## lesacks (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm quite change tolerant and can see the positives in the new software etc.

But the admin (VS admin, not the volunteer crew) drew the line with this post.



VSadmin said:


> I am going to need the following info to get these reported and blocked. Next time it happens can you report the following and I will report them up the chain.
> 
> 
> Description of the issue, including frequency
> ...


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## AddictedToSax (Aug 18, 2007)

Why? How can they fix an issue if they don’t what it is or when it happened? Did I miss something. I read the quoted post three times and still don’t see what is wrong with it.


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## Sacks Of Phones (Jan 26, 2017)

Dr G said:


> Don't forget to tip your favorite moderators!
> 
> Tip Jar!


Which way do we tip them: left, right, back, forward?


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## lesacks (Feb 15, 2015)

AddictedToSax said:


> Why? How can they fix an issue if they don't what it is or when it happened? Did I miss something. I read the quoted post three times and still don't see what is wrong with it.


Because it's a standard dev/ops brush-off. It signals that the site is not run by devotees but by an account manager with a timesheet with hours for SOTW and many other assets and somewhere to submit tickets to dev teams etc. All focused on eyeballs per add display.

Which is fine. That's how things are, most places. But that is the big change. Not the software.


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## AddictedToSax (Aug 18, 2007)

Ok. Not being in the IT biz I didn’t see that. Reading it literally it seems like he wanted to know what was happening, how often and when. It seemed pretty innocuous to me.


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## datsaxman (Nov 28, 2005)

They are asking for a laundry list of info. Including things the average member does not know.
It is a simple way to cut down on requests for work. Or cut down on actual work. 
"Sorry, but this work request is not formatted correctly. We cannot do this work until the paperwork is correct".
I am NOT saying that this is what VS is doing. Just saying how the generic runaround works.


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## HeavyWeather77 (May 15, 2004)

One billion percent agreed, Phil. This website has been a very valuable, but FREE, resource for many years, and it will continue to be. The admins' donated time and energy is very much appreciated. I like many things about the new layout, I miss many aspects of the old, but regardless, the only constant in the universe is change, and it's on us to roll with it with as much grace as possible.


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## Meyer65 (Feb 8, 2009)

pitsen3 said:


> For me, I see no real impediment in the new software. This comes from a infrequent contributor. However I browse here every day. I guess I am fairly compliant and really don't have any skin in the game except I have learned so much in the last fourteen years.


I echo this sentiment. The only thing that really is bugging me is not being able to view old pictures...but overall I actually kind of like the new layout and look forward to the kinks being hammered out.


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## !46puosxB (Apr 3, 2020)

Sigmund451 said:


> I voiced my opinions and suggestions too. Nothing changed and I simply reminded myself that thisnforum is not a democracy,,,it is owned. I can make the choice to come or go. I think if we just take a deep breath and get back to forum business things will improve while still pointing out and working through the bugs.
> continuing to throw fits just breeds discontent. And as I ssuggested, there is no lack of thatoutside of the forum.


Even in a DEMOCRACY , all INDIVIDUAL requests can't be addressed , and even when addressed , they can't always be personally solved .


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## randulo (Jun 15, 2018)

As an infrequent visitor, I didn't even know it changed, other than the colors! This said, if you've ever had a singer ask you to change keys in the middle of a tune, then you're ready for changes!


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## turf3 (Mar 9, 2015)

I don't think anyone whose posts I've seen has mistaken VSAdmin (they of the traditional IT brush-off and updates that are less functional than what they replaced) for the site moderators (volunteers who are doing the best they can, and who don't have any authority over the computer aspects of the site), or vice versa.

The moderators are doing a fine job. VSadmin I won't comment on at this time.


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## dexdex (May 10, 2011)

Sigmund451 said:


> ...this forum is not a democracy,,,it is owned...


A frequently made mistake. This is the 3rd forum in pretty short time where I make the same experience. You spend (=give) quite some of your time to contribute. You also take and learn a lot, which is a fair deal.
You live with some commercial stuff, banners, but also sales ads which are supposed to pay for "the rent" (hosting, etc...). You believe.
And suddenly 1 guy decides to "sell" the whole operation. Including all our "hours spent".
En français there is a name for that.
I still believe that I'm a rather patient and peaceful individual. So I won't go into further detail how I feel about the whole change.
I already mentioned in another thread how I consider commercial ads within a discussion. Even Facebook is more respectful.
So now we are supposed to take care about whom ?
Maybe even apologize ?


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## datsaxman (Nov 28, 2005)

What dexdex said. In American English there are names for that as well.


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## dirty (Nov 11, 2004)

lesacks said:


> Because it's a standard dev/ops brush-off. It signals that the site is not run by devotees but by an account manager with a timesheet with hours for SOTW and many other assets and somewhere to submit tickets to dev teams etc. All focused on eyeballs per add display.
> 
> Which is fine. That's how things are, most places. But that is the big change. Not the software.


I have nothing to do with the administration of this forum (thankfully, since the customers are a handful!), but I've done IT and support work pretty extensively and the reason we would ask questions like this is because we couldn't fix problems if we didn't know when they were happening. The people fixing the issues need to know enough context that they can reproduce the issue, determine what's causing it and determine how to address it for every user in every edge case. Things need to work in Safari on my 6 inch iphone screen as well as in Firefox loaded up with extensions on my 27" desktop monitor and everything other possible configuration of devices and browsers from the last 10 years, to say nothing of browser extensions, etc.

So yes, you've seen that response before, but that's because there's no secret to troubleshooting. You just need as much context as possible, especially if it's an issue that not every single user is having. Whoever is troubleshooting needs to isolate what is different about the one user (or the subset of users) that are having the issues, since that will usually be a good indicator of what is happening.

For example, I'm not getting the horrible McAfee popups that some people are getting. The first thing I would need to do to troubleshoot that would be to figure out what is different about my setup vs theirs.

With that said, VSAdmin does need to work on their bedside manner.


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## lesacks (Feb 15, 2015)

dirty said:


> ... but that's because there's no secret to troubleshooting ...
> 
> The first thing I would need to do to troubleshoot that would be to figure out what is different about my setup vs theirs.


Ok. But look at the questions. Few real users could answer them. Eg most folks won't know how to give their ip address (eg to look on the router not pc), let alone the http call stack; and certainly not in retrospect! And even then, re your last point, did they ask "which plug ins are active"? Probably more important than which OS!!
If the logs aren't upto finding the session from userid + time range they need to sort out their logging, not ask impossible questions. 
But that wasn't even my point, which was made in post #11. 
I wouldn't be surprised if sotw was at the small end of VSs assets and has a small dev-hours budget for log scraping.... Hence the daft questions.


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## Sigmund451 (Aug 8, 2003)

I used the wrong wording in my title. I was referring to the pressure placed on the forum MODERATORS.
Nothing personal but VS kinda got what they asked for. That still doesnt make it ok to be mean spirited.


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## Laggszboy (Jun 29, 2017)

Sigmund451 said:


> II dislike change as much or more than the next guy but there are folks here just hammering the Sotw admin staff. Some of these guys are typing their fingers to the bone to help get things done. At the same time they are taking the brunt of the perceived blame.
> 
> Yes, the marketplace is a mess, no one likes ads, the new format is new and sometimes buggy.
> 
> Face reality, its not gonna change back. The more you want it to, the longer its going to take to adjust. This is still SOTW and its made upof people, not computer programs. So my advice is to let go and start posting about music, cooking,or whatever. Heck, with covid, politics and the platform change a thread with some really good jokes would be welcome right now. Life isnt easy right now. Dont make it harder.


As a sax and trumpet player, I have what I believe to be a good solution to this dilemma. Everyone switch to trumpet. Admittedly, changing instruments entirely might seem like a daunting, even outrageous, idea, but hear me out for a minute. The trumpet forums are informative and intuitive, with appreciably less personal drama, and less ads. By switching instruments you will increase your sophistication while reducing your consternation.


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## dirty (Nov 11, 2004)

Laggszboy said:


> As a sax and trumpet player, I have what I believe to be a good solution to this dilemma. Everyone switch to trumpet. Admittedly, changing instruments entirely might seem like a daunting, even outrageous, idea, but hear me out for a minute. The trumpet forums are informative and intuitive, with appreciably less personal drama, and less ads. By switching instruments you will increase your sophistication while reducing your consternation.


Mods, please ban this poster.


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## lesacks (Feb 15, 2015)

dirty said:


> Mods, please ban this poster.


A bit harsh. He didn't explicitly say tr*mb*ne.


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## ajarndontree (Mar 10, 2011)

Sigmund451 said:


> II dislike change as much or more than the next guy but there are folks here just hammering the Sotw admin staff. Some of these guys are typing their fingers to the bone to help get things done. At the same time they are taking the brunt of the perceived blame.
> 
> Yes, the marketplace is a mess, no one likes ads, the new format is new and sometimes buggy.
> 
> Face reality, its not gonna change back. The more you want it to, the longer its going to take to adjust. This is still SOTW and its made upof people, not computer programs. So my advice is to let go and start posting about music, cooking,or whatever. Heck, with covid, politics and the platform change a thread with some really good jokes would be welcome right now. Life isnt easy right now. Dont make it harder.


Yes there are things we miss from the old site, but overall I like the new SOTW better. Just give admin some time to work out the kinks. This is still the best online saxophone community and all of this great information is available to everyone for free. I am glad to see the ads because I want this forum to be financially sustainable and it's a small price to pay for such valuable information and collaboration. Long live the saxophone forum king SOTW!


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## Mike T (Mar 10, 2013)

@VSadmin

Every day for the last seven years I've received a series of emails from SotW around 14:00 or 15:00 giving me links to the latest posts in the forums I'm permanently interested in. One email per forum, each containing all the new posts for that category, usually about 9 emails. Since this changeover, these portmanteau emails have stopped, and have been replaced by a separate email for each new post, so that, where I used to receive at most 9 daily email from SotW at the one time, I now receive 20 or 30, scattered across the day. Believe it ort not, I've more to do with my time&#8230;

Having dealt with the emails, I would go into the website and check what had been happening in general since my last visit, by logging into the New Posts page. Now when I try to do that I find nothing on the "What's New" page, except for the message, "No results found."

I don't mind you modernising the website, but FFS why can't you at the same time
let me and others like me access SotW in the manner we've grown accustomed to ? I was happy with the portmanteau email setup: you removed it out of the blue without a word. Why do you treat SotW members with such contempt ?


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## Jacques5646 (Aug 9, 2007)

As a rather long time member (and contributor for quite a few years), I've been less active for awhile. I must admit, like another member here, that I hadn't notice much changes, except of the design and the colours, when I signed in some days ago... Internet has been the playing ground of all excesses and senseless drifts for years and years and I still have difficulties to understand how one can develop delirious reactions about what, at the end of day, remains a nice forum devoted to a musical instrument !


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## Jacques5646 (Aug 9, 2007)

It seems that unwanted ads keep popping up for some members. I personnally don't see one. Perhaps my using Firefox, with a nice ad blocker, and DuckDuckGo instead of Google for my basic searches, helps al lot.


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## milandro (Dec 22, 2006)

Mike T said:


> I was happy with the portmanteau email setup: you removed it out of the blue without a word.


You can activate your email notifications (if they are now non active, in your profile, click on your avatar, click on account details click on preferences, manage the otions there)

The what's new link has changed









What's New







www.saxontheweb.net







Jacques5646 said:


> It seems that unwanted ads keep popping up for some members. I personnally don't see one. .... a nice ad blocker, ....helps al lot.


yes.... that one alone


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## cswain (Apr 11, 2012)

I am an infrequent visitor so unaware of what's been happening re changes other than this thread. For informational purposes, I had a popup ad that covered nearly my entire 24" screen on my desktop monitor running firefox (need to check if my ad blocker is running after update?). The ad was German police (I think!) and I could find no 'x' to close it. Scrolling up I could see the first 4 posts, then the ad totally covered my screen. Text said I could scroll down to reveal content, but doing so only revealed the last line of what turned out to be post #20. Finally I thought to reload my current page which brought me back to my normal world and ads only at the side of my window. It WAS disconcerting but I'm cool now with remembering my reload button. )


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## VSadmin (Mar 20, 2017)

Mike T said:


> @VSadmin
> 
> Every day for the last seven years I've received a series of emails from SotW around 14:00 or 15:00 giving me links to the latest posts in the forums I'm permanently interested in. One email per forum, each containing all the new posts for that category, usually about 9 emails. Since this changeover, these portmanteau emails have stopped, and have been replaced by a separate email for each new post, so that, where I used to receive at most 9 daily email from SotW at the one time, I now receive 20 or 30, scattered across the day. Believe it ort not, I've more to do with my time&#8230;
> 
> ...


Hello @Mike T

The daily digest is no longer an option however you can filter New Posts, check out *THIS* tutorial in the FAQ.

You can accomplish this by setting a custom default filter on the new posts page.

*Step 1 *Navigate to the specific forum you want to focus on and click "Follow Forum".










*Step 2* From the navigation, near the upper right-hand corner, click on NEW.










This will open a new page of new posts for you. On the new page, click on filters.










Now you can adjust the filters to work for your personal preferences, such as the example above and save it as the default. Make sure to click the "filter" button to save it, at the bottom.

Jeff M


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## mrpeebee (Jan 29, 2010)

Meyer65 said:


> I echo this sentiment. The only thing that really is bugging me is not being able to view old pictures...but overall I actually kind of like the new layout and look forward to the kinks being hammered out.


This issue is known by VSadmin and I'm chasing them till the end of times until it's resolved!


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## wilco87 (Jul 26, 2017)

mrpeebee said:


> This issue is known by VSadmin and I'm chasing them till the end of times until it's resolved!


Good to hear... Loved to browse the silver plated thread and just watch the amazing horns. Hope they can figure it out.


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## milandro (Dec 22, 2006)

I think the old pictures are yes, saved somewhere, but once the link linking images to post in the old threads has been severed , short of manually re loading them, even supposing anyone still knows where exactly they came from , it will be very difficult to do and would use up resources to a point that it may never happen.

We shall see.

Mind you, only the old pictures which were uploaded onto the forum as attachments are in limbo, the other ones (and are the great majority) which don't show or show blurred are either no longer existing on the site where they came from or they were hosted on sites such as photobucket which blurs them unless you subscribe (the original poster than is, not the viewer)

In fact most images simply linked from other sites wil , in time, disappear, because they no longer exist where the link brings you.

Another such problem developed when the internet moved from http to https, the previous forum at some stage no longer showed the images ( shortly after Vs had taken over) so I started to upload pictures here because the staff expanded (the allocated size and space that we had allocated before ) we had for many years a limited attachment facility which was silently expanded a LOT)

so, if you see something like this or a ? in a blue field, those images are gone but not because of the migration.


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## lesacks (Feb 15, 2015)

milandro said:


> ....short of manually re loading them...


I'm not sure that's true. The images have a database id that is in the posts and wherever they where stored (I don't suppose they are just lying around a disk somewhere!), But have a different id where they are now (if they where imported). 
I'd guess the problem is that some dev has to write a script or such to remap the IDs / URLs in the posts (give or take importing the the images). But... This is probably work that has to be allocated to a team (can't by done by our account holder Admin)... So, time and budget are the constraints.


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## milandro (Dec 22, 2006)

If a script would have solved the problem probably we would have seen it already, but you certainly know more than I do


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## DavidW (May 30, 2007)

Do the TPS reports still require new coversheets? I didn't get the memo.


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## Meyer65 (Feb 8, 2009)

DavidW said:


> Do the TPS reports still require new coversheets? I didn't get the memo.


 Ummmm yeah.... If you could just go ahead and make sure you do that from now on, that will be grrreeat. And, umm, I'll go ahead and make sure you get another copy of that memo. Mkay?


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