# Marketplace Classifieds Updates



## reeddoubler

The site says I'm not authorized, it's my listing!

[ADMIN EDIT]

This issue is being addressed See here November 2020 New Marketplace (now Classifieds) policy


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## boots148

I had the same problem.. I was told to contact VSadministrator.


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## hakukani

boots148 said:


> I had the same problem.. I was told to contact VSadministrator.


Yes. This is a teething problem. If you point me to the ad, I'll mark it sold.


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## hakukani

Belay that offer. It seems I can't do anything in the Marketplace, either.


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## masonmjs

This is obviously a recurring problem, I found that I am also unable to reply to anything in the WTB part of the Marketplace. I reported this a couple of days ago and Pete informed me it was a glitch which happened with the migration to the new format. All I can say is that software 'glitches' are normally sorted out in a few hours, not several days, the marketplace is effectively useless if you can't reply to posts (other than by 'conversation').


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## milandro

Apparently for the time being you can Edit your post and mark it as sold, they have said several times they are trying to address the problems in the market place but for the time being.... edit ( three dots on the top right hand side of the box where a post is published)

You can only edit a certain amount of posts every 7 days , I have been uploading the pictures that went missing with the migration and update prices in my posts and reached the quota for 7 days


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## allenlowe

so one cannot post to lower a price?


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## datsaxman

I expect that you can post to your own FS thread, but not to someone else's. Same as always. Since it changed last year.


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## Pete Thomas

datsaxman said:


> I expect that you can post to your own FS thread,


No you can't until it is fixed. We are all waiting on that.


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## milandro

allenlowe said:


> so one cannot post to lower a price?


You can edit your ad, (for the time being at least) is the only way to lower the price


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## Pete Thomas

milandro said:


> You can edit your ad, (for the time being at least) is the only way to lower the price


As always, after a couple of months you can request a deletion in order to relist.



milandro said:


> (for the time being at least)


We have no way right now to know how long that might be.


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## Dr G

milandro said:


> You can edit your ad, (for the time being at least) is the only way to lower the price


I just did that on my "FS: Borgani Jubilee Alto..." ad. The sad part is that editing a thread does not act to bump it in the stack.

Editing, rather than replying, also subverts the intent of existing rules of maintaining a history of the FS thread.


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## reeddoubler

I’ll be saving a ton on impulse purchases I don’t really need anyhow, the new regime is great!! Why should I be authorized to respond to ads anyway, I’ve only been on the site for 26 years!


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## reeddoubler

Actually 16 years


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## 14470

reeddoubler said:


> I'll be saving a ton on impulse purchases I don't really need anyhow, the new regime is great!! Why should I be authorized to respond to ads anyway, I've only been on the site for 26 years!


Nothing personal, as these rules have been in place for some time and apply to everyone.


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## datsaxman

Yes, since last year. No replies in the For Sale threads.


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## Ivan M

I think the NO response on the ADS is a GREAT thing, you wont get people that aren't really buying, saying that price is too high, or to low, it eliminates all the NONSENSE. I belong to a few other hobby forums and the same rule applies....You send the person a Private Message and deal with them direct.


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## Dr G

reeddoubler said:


> I'll be saving a ton on impulse purchases I don't really need anyhow, the new regime is great!! Why should I be authorized to respond to ads anyway, I've only been on the site for 26 years!


Nothing should be stopping you from buying - that's what this place is all about!

What's not working? Have you tried contacting the person via PM?


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## Shade of Blue

I used to be able to at least respond to my own listings to lower the price or mark it as sold, but now I can't even do that.


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## J-Moen

Shade of Blue said:


> I used to be able to at least respond to my own listings to lower the price or mark it as sold, but now I can't even do that.


Work in progress, admins are aware. Sucks though


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## Dr G

Shade of Blue said:


> I used to be able to at least respond to my own listings to lower the price or mark it as sold, but now I can't even do that.


You can use the edit function to lower the price or mark as sold. See the lil' three dots in the upper right of the post.


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## Shade of Blue

Dr G said:


> You can use the edit function to lower the price or mark as sold. See the lil' three dots in the upper right of the post.


Ah I see. And we used to not be able to edit, so I guess the tables have turned.


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## Dr G

Shade of Blue said:


> Ah I see. And we used to not be able to edit, so I guess the tables have turned.


Wild, wild west... Yee haw!


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## allenlowe

you want Wild West? We should be allowed to edit each others' post. Then let the fun begin.


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## PigSquealer

Dr G said:


> Nothing should be stopping you from buying - that's what this place is all about!
> 
> What's not working? Have you tried contacting the person via PM?


To be PC a PM is now called a PC. Private Conversation. This is under a persons (members) avatar( ID badge). Click on conversation to send a (PM)private message. If the recipient of the message replies then it becomes a (PC) private conversation. That depends if the recipient person is able to find the PC.
If a member wishes to continue this PC. Type in retrievable data. Then Click (left) on (green) reply to fully engage this mode. If you have any other questions go to the three dots in the upper right hand corner. Scroll down to the FAQ. If a person can't find what there looking for. Contact the VSADIM as the MOD cannot fix the MP FS PC aka PM Issue.
My only hope is the seller and the buyer both succeed in contact, and a good transaction.


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## PigSquealer

allenlowe said:


> you want Wild West? We should be allowed to edit each others' post. Then let the fun begin.


🚬🔫


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## Dr G

allenlowe said:


> you want Wild West?


I love that show.



allenlowe said:


> We should be allowed to edit each others' post. Then let the fun begin, and let it begin with me.


Whaddaya mean you didn't say that? Can you prove that you didn't edit it after I captured your post?


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## mrpeebee

allenlowe said:


> you want Wild West? We should be allowed to edit each others' post. Then let the fun begin.


I can do that! 

About the edit function: 
That will be only temporary till the replying on your own thread issue is fixed.

Please don't blame the old SOTW moderators, we can't do anything about that. 
The issue is due to limitations of this new software and/or due to the slowness of the side owner VSadmin moderators to resolve this quickly. They also could have listened better to the old SOTW moderator group before dumping new software over the fence.


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## Pete Thomas

mrpeebee said:


> The issue is due to limitations of this new software


Actually the new software is not the issue. It is down to the way the software options are implemented. The software is very customisable to suit individual site needs. Here it is customised in a certain way. We would like to see that suit our specific SOTW needs and member requests.


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## datsaxman

Yes. This is it. The choices that were / are made.


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## mrpeebee

Pete Thomas said:


> Actually the new software is not the issue. It is down to the way the software options are implemented. The software is very customisable to suit individual site needs. Here it is customised in a certain way. We would like to see that suit our specific SOTW needs and member requests.


That's actually the same as what I wrote Pete, meaning with limitations the way it is implemented/customized by the VS.



> The issue is due to limitations of this new software *and/or* due to the slowness of the side owner VSadmin moderators to resolve this quickly.


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## Pete Thomas

mrpeebee said:


> That's actually the same as what I wrote Pete, meaning with limitations the way it is implemented/customized by the VS.


Agreed


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## Just Joe

Dr G said:


> I love that show.
> 
> Me too!!


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## Dr G

Yes, the Marketplace went through some changes, rules were established, and restrictions were argued and refuted.

The latest implementation is an abject failure. Updating an ad with a lowered price should bring the FS back to the top of the stack. It doesn’t. Should the alternative be to just keep posting new FS ads with an adjusted price? The seller can also no longer get to the top of the stack with the addition of images - also allowed by the rules.

Am I the only one having these challenges?

If there is something I am not understanding with the new interface, please give me a clue.

Frustrated,

George


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## mrpeebee

We (the old SOTW moderators) had discussions about this with VSadmin (the owner) and it seems that the new forum can't follow our rules. They are (hopefully) still checking, but we haven't been updated on the status lately.

Like you I'm also frustrated, but more about the fact that the old SOTW moderators can't do much anymore here about guiding this process with real actions.

I will report your post and assign it to VSadmin (that's something I still can do).


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## Pete Thomas

We are all frustrated and doing our best to sort everything out.


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## Guto

Someone remind me why we changed platform again please? What a fiasco all around.


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## Tranechaser

Agreed, I can’t follow it.


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## 10mfan

Unfortunately, this great website has gone straight down the tubes, with this new set-up.
Harri built a beautiful place for us to share everything saxophone and more with one another, and it was set up quite nicely before. Very easy to navigate before.
Very sorry to see whats going on now.

I wish there was a way to keep the set up from before, but add new features and updates.


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## jbjazzman

IS there a way to go back to the old set up or will that just F--up things even more?


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## datsaxman

The change was and IS so the new owner can make money. 

So simple. All else is incidental.


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## Dr G

datsaxman said:


> The change was and IS so the new owner can make money.
> 
> So simple. All else is incidental.


An all too common refrain to those of us old enough to know, and intact enough to recall, the greedy buyouts in the music industry - Gibson, Fender...

If the new owner wants my money, they will need to restore utility at least to the previous level.


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## buddy lee

Yep I picked a bad time to try to sell my VI here lol completely buried. Oh well there are other places to play.


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## lostcircuits

buddy lee said:


> Yep I picked a bad time to try to sell my VI here lol completely buried. Oh well there are other places to play.


Reverb kinda sucks, too, Facebook is more a bargain bin than anything else. Craigslist is a bit too local but hey maybe I should just start a sax-specific site: "the SaxoPhone Exchange"


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## bandmommy

Dr G said:


> Yes, the Marketplace went through some changes, rules were established, and restrictions were argued and refuted.
> 
> The latest implementation is an abject failure. Updating an ad with a lowered price should bring the FS back to the top of the stack. It doesn't. Should the alternative be to just keep posting new FS ads with an adjusted price? The seller can also no longer get to the top of the stack with the addition of images - also allowed by the rules.
> 
> Am I the only one having these challenges?
> 
> If there is something I am not understanding with the new interface, please give me a clue.
> 
> Frustrated,
> 
> George


Sadly, this problem isn't just in the marketplace.
It's site wide and yes, frustrating to say the least.


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## datsaxman

Let us know, LostCircuits. I have a few listings for the SaxEx.


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## andre251

[QUOTE="Dr G, post: 4232498, member: 9321

Am I the only one having these challenges?[/QUOTE]
I actually wanted to put up an ad for sale for months and finally decided to do it.... under a week before the website change.
? 
So half my photos disappeared and even I have trouble finding the sale page!
I read the reports about the changes and saw that I could just edit my sale ad and it would bring it up to the top. Didn't work. 
So I can confirm you are not alone Dr. G. 
It is definitely frustrating. 
The website is also generally harder to navigate as well. But I agree with you on the point I believe you are making, that we spent _so long_ coming up with specific marketplace rules just last year and now suddenly just dropped them all. 
Well, since this post will be the newest to come up, and there seem to be no rules anymore, I am selling a soprano for anyone interested.

?‍♂


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## Dr G

andre251 said:


> [QUOTE="Dr G, post: 4232498, member: 9321
> 
> Am I the only one having these challenges?


I actually wanted to put up an ad for sale for months and finally decided to do it.... under a week before the website change.
?
So half my photos disappeared and even I have trouble finding the sale page!
I read the reports about the changes and saw that I could just edit my sale ad and it would bring it up to the top. Didn't work. 
So I can confirm you are not alone Dr. G.
It is definitely frustrating.
The website is also generally harder to navigate as well. But I agree with you on the point I believe you are making, that we spent _so long_ coming up with specific marketplace rules just last year and now suddenly just dropped them all.
Well, since this post will be the newest to come up, and there seem to be no rules anymore, I am selling a soprano for anyone interested.

?‍♂
[/QUOTE]

Hey, Andre, I have a Borgani Jubilee alto for sale! What sop are you selling?


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## Tranechaser

lostcircuits said:


> Reverb kinda sucks, too, Facebook is more a bargain bin than anything else. Craigslist is a bit too local but hey maybe I should just start a sax-specific site: "the SaxoPhone Exchange"


There actually is another forum out there, but I'm not going to mention the name here because it would be in bad taste to do so.


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## lostcircuits

Agreed and I'm sure we'll run into each other


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## Dr G

Tranechaser said:


> There actually is another forum out there, but I'm not going to mention the name here because it would be in bad taste to do so.


I respectfully disagree. This forum has trashed itself - a darn shame given the energy that so many of us have put it to it for so many years.

If a ship is going down, you don't say that getting into a life boat or a rescue vessel is disrespectful.

I am curious about which other forums that the new owners have acquired, and which are getting the attention to make them run well. It sure isn't this one.


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## datsaxman

GRRRRRRRRRR ...


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## Tranechaser

Dr G said:


> I respectfully disagree. This forum has trashed itself - a darn shame given the energy that so many of us have put it to it for so many years.
> 
> If a ship is going down, you don't say that getting into a life boat or a rescue vessel is disrespectful.
> 
> I am curious about which other forums that the new owners have acquired, and which are getting the attention to make them run well. It sure isn't this one.


Changing the format will go down in history along with Henry Ford II firing Lee Iacocca and the Cowboys firing Jimmy Johnson.


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## PigSquealer

andre251 said:


> Dr G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5179[/ATTACH]
Click to expand...


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## PigSquealer

andre251 said:


> Dr G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5179[/ATTACH]
Click to expand...


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## PigSquealer

andre251 said:


> Dr G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5179[/ATTACH]
Click to expand...


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## PigSquealer

OK if I can't post the post directly I will post a screenshot. WTH


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## Jcam44

I’m lost about everything going on with this site to the point I don’t visit as frequently as I once did. Not sure how much one assumes they can make from a message board but I assume it’s non-sax player because this site used to be the place to be.


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## 14470

10mfan said:


> Unfortunately, this great website has gone straight down the tubes, with this new set-up.
> Harri built a beautiful place for us to share everything saxophone and more with one another, and it was set up quite nicely before. Very easy to navigate before.
> Very sorry to see whats going on now.
> 
> I wish there was a way to keep the set up from before, but add new features and updates.


I sympathize with your frustration and others have shared similar sentiments in private. However, I assume that Harri did have a hand in the sale of SOTW, and it would have been nice to have seen the site offered for sale to its membership, who did play a part in making in what it was (for better or worse). Moreover, as a professional seller, the old site may have worked great for you, but it certainly wasn't without problems with some byzantine rules and at times heavy-handed moderation. As result, the marketplace took on a downward trajectory prior to the new format, which appears to have inflicted a tail-spin. I never was good at selling and frustrated with the persistent low-balling, so further decay of the marketplace isn't a major concern for me per se. However, this, along with other changes, is causing members who I value greatly to leave, which is rather worrisome.


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## datsaxman

Time does not easily reverse. The new owners are not going to "put things back". There is no longer any such place. 

Undoubtedly there are other folks that could have / would have taken it on. That is not what happened.


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## mrpeebee

datsaxman said:


> Time does not easily reverse. The new owners are not going to "put things back". There is no longer any such place.
> 
> Undoubtedly there are other folks that could have / would have taken it on. That is not what happened.


This ^^^ is indeed all very true and pragmatic.

We can like it or not, but there is no way back. The new forum is different and I also don't like the look and feel that much compared to the old format, but it works and most functions are available, but working in a (slightly) different way. Only way to get used to that is to use it and to click around and see how it works. For met that's easy as an ICT professional, for others it might take more time, but everybody can get used to it. The online documentation (FAQ, Help) is actually quite good and the forum works technically much better compared to the old forum.

What frustrates me (and some of the other old SOTW moderators) more is how this forum is operated by the current owners (not listening too much to members and/or old SOTW moderators), but those discussions are on-going (for you not always visible, but you can be sure we are not shy in sharing our opinions). Discussion points are about organizing things in another way and are also linked to limitations of the new forum software or the willingness of the owners (or us!) to change something.

So, as mentioned, the discussions are still on-going and I'm not sure what will come out. But I (and some of the other old SOTW moderators) am also not willing to let this place go down too easily, otherwise I (we) would not put the energy and time in anymore.

This used to be a great forum and it still can be in my opinion.


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## !46puosxB

Is there a certain length of weeks/months/years needed as a member to post and or to purchase items from other members ?


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## Pete Thomas

!46puosxB said:


> Is there a certain length of weeks/months/years needed as a member to post and or to purchase items from other members ?


See *here*


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## 10mfan

brasscane said:


> I sympathize with your frustration and others have shared similar sentiments in private. However, I assume that Harri did have a hand in the sale of SOTW, and it would have been nice to have seen the site offered for sale to its membership, who did play a part in making in what it was (for better or worse). Moreover, as a professional seller, the old site may have worked great for you, but it certainly wasn't without problems with some byzantine rules and at times heavy-handed moderation. As result, the marketplace took on a downward trajectory prior to the new format, which appears to have inflicted a tail-spin. I never was good at selling and frustrated with the persistent low-balling, so further decay of the marketplace isn't a major concern for me per se. However, this, along with other changes, is causing members who I value greatly to leave, which is rather worrisome.


I know a few people that have left also. They felt the same way that many of us do--that it's just totally tanked. 
This website was an invaluable resource for so many things saxophone and music related. Players could come on and ask questions about things they didn't know, and there were loads and loads of posts that would answer their questions right away. I personally put a lot of effort into answering thousands of posts with the replies that would help. So many others here have done the same. We put ALOT of effort into helping make this site what it was. I've contacted the new administrators so many times and i've gotten nowhere. It's very frustrating and certainly not the way to treat someone who's been here for two decades, and someone has contributed so much. I'm sure loads of us feel that way.

It's just not right. 
My questions and needs could've been attended to right away. I even left them my email and my personal phone number. This whole place has sunk. Really VERY sad to see this.

Hopefully they will do something to bring it back to where it was.
If it was all about making money, they could've charged people a fee to belong here, or a fee to post or whatever. 
Now the set up is so bad that it's not even worth it.

DISAPPOINTING.

VS ADMINISTRATORS-- PLEASE LISTEN TO THE MEMBERS NEEDS.

We all want this place to be great


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## minicooper

I had the same problem when I sold a mouthpiece last week. I had to edit my post to mark it as sold. I want to lower the price on some of my other pieces that are still for sale, but they’ll still be buried in that the history since they don’t move up...I may have to find somewhere else to get some attention for the pieces I want to sell


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## milandro

well, you can find all the threads that you've started bly clicking on your picture, then when you see your profile you click on discussions ( that you've started) and you can scroll and edit your ads.









minicooper







www.saxontheweb.net





I can see them all here, you should be able to find them easily!


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## Enthusiast65

mrpeebee said:


> This used to be a great forum and it still can be in my opinion.


Love the sentiment Mrpeebee, and huge thanks to you and all your fellow mods for sticking with it and investing time and energy to steer VSAdmin to a more positive outcome. We _all_ hope you get there. in the meantime *VERY MANY THANKS!*


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## VSadmin

Heya all,

Quick update as we are working with the Mod/Admin team here to review the classifieds rules and reply/edit settings.

Jeff M


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## VSadmin

10mfan said:


> I know a few people that have left also. They felt the same way that many of us do--that it's just totally tanked.
> This website was an invaluable resource for so many things saxophone and music related. Players could come on and ask questions about things they didn't know, and there were loads and loads of posts that would answer their questions right away. I personally put a lot of effort into answering thousands of posts with the replies that would help. So many others here have done the same. We put ALOT of effort into helping make this site what it was. I've contacted the new administrators so many times and i've gotten nowhere. It's very frustrating and certainly not the way to treat someone who's been here for two decades, and someone has contributed so much. I'm sure loads of us feel that way.
> 
> It's just not right.
> My questions and needs could've been attended to right away. I even left them my email and my personal phone number. This whole place has sunk. Really VERY sad to see this.
> 
> Hopefully they will do something to bring it back to where it was.
> If it was all about making money, they could've charged people a fee to belong here, or a fee to post or whatever.
> Now the set up is so bad that it's not even worth it.
> 
> DISAPPOINTING.
> 
> VS ADMINISTRATORS-- PLEASE LISTEN TO THE MEMBERS NEEDS.
> 
> We all want this place to be great


@10mfan

Replied to your Private Convoversation to address your concerns.

Jeff M


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## VSadmin

Merged the two marketplace threads to keep all the info in one place.

Jeff M


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## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> Am I the only one having these challenges?


No.

I'd like to add for everyone that we SOTW moderators are also having to find our way around and get used to different things. It's taken us a long time to adapt to what is and isn't now possible. We can no longer do some of the admin we could before (this seems to be a global VS policy so there is nothing that even VSadmin here can do here to change corporate policy beyond feeding back our frustration to the policy makers.

We are sometimes getting personal communications as if it is our fault, or that we can wave a wand and change VS policy, or go back to what it was. As mrpeebee said we are trying our best, and we are probably being a real PITA to VSadmin while we expect things to work like they did before are ask for things both for our own ease of moderation but probably more so for the community.

There was a post earlier which was saying something not very nice about "the moderators" and I think it is very unfair, whatever your opinions to blame us.

I also just saw the following:



andre251 said:


> Well, since this post will be the newest to come up, _*and there seem to be no rules anymore*_, I am selling a soprano for anyone interested.


Why would there be reason to think there are no more rules?

As yet, no actual rules have changed or been deleted apart from one or two obsolete rules (such as requiring an email profile contact in FS ads) and some clarification over the vendor section which is based on Verticalscope rules. If people say there are no more rules, and start posting FS ads outside the Marketplace then it's wild west timeand just making more work for moderators at a time we really don't need it. Please understand we (mods) are in the same boat, possibly an even rockier one.

So the rules are still in place (ie the *SOTW rules here*) and also the VS site *terms and conditions* here. (Note I have made some changes as above obvious by the purple edit notes. These are purely so that the rules fit in with the new limitations of the site.

Regarding the above, although technically they are an infringement, we won't take any action because I understand the frustration and maybe they involve some irony/humour, but to be honest it's not easy for us to maintain a sense of humour if our work is compounded during a difficult time.

But please please I'd ask everyone to work with us as far as possible. We mods don't make or necessarily agree with the rules.


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## Dr G

Pete Thomas said:


> If people say there are no more rules, and start posting FS ads outside the Marketplace then it's wild west timeand just making more work for moderators at a time we really don't need it. Please understand we (mods) are in the same boat, possibly an even rockier one.
> 
> So the rules are still in place (ie the *SOTW rules here*) and also the VS site *terms and conditions* here. (Note I have made some changes as above obvious by the purple edit notes. These are purely so that the rules fit in with the new limitations of the site.
> 
> Regarding the above, although technically they are an infringement, we won't take any action because I understand the frustration and maybe they involve some irony/humour, but to be honest it's not easy for us to maintain a sense of humour if our work is compounded during a difficult time.


Please note, Pete, that neither Andre nor I posted a FS ad outside the Marketplace. The same restrictions apply to those that want to see our ads. This is no different than those members who for years have added comments in their signature line about horns for sale. If you take offense to my post, I apologize. If posting any comments about horns for sale is in violation of the intent of The Rules, then let's be consistent and explicit in the expectations.

All the best,

George


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## Pete Thomas

No offence and no apology needed, in fact I quoted your post by mistake so it's my place to apologise *EDIT: I will edit*

The problem for me is the "there are no more rules" statement which is simply not true and possibly going to cause us problems at a time when we don't need any more.


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## 10mfan

VSadmin said:


> @10mfan
> 
> Replied to your Private Convoversation to address your concerns.
> 
> Jeff M


Thanks Jeff.


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## Dr G

*2. When posting an item in the marketplace, you MUST provide the following information:*

a. Item name make, model (especially specify alto, tenor, etc.)
b. Asking price. This is not eBay.
c. Your shipping Location
d. Description in more details. Condition.
e. Email Enabled in your profile. Do not post email addresses in the ad.

*[Admin edit 29/10/2020 : I don't think the email rule this applies since the software change]*

Which e-mail rules do apply? Is it now alright to post e-mail addresses in the ads or not? There are several posts just today that include e-mail addresses.


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## Dr G

Pete,

Since we've lost the banner that formerly linked to the Marketplace Rules, might it be possible to make the Marketplace Rules a sticky at the top of the Recommended Reading stack?

[IMPORTANT - *** RULES - GENERAL POSTING, CLASSIFIED...


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## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> *2. When posting an item in the marketplace, you MUST provide the following information:*
> 
> a. Item name make, model (especially specify alto, tenor, etc.)
> b. Asking price. This is not eBay.
> c. Your shipping Location
> d. Description in more details. Condition.
> e. Email Enabled in your profile. Do not post email addresses in the ad.
> 
> *[Admin edit 29/10/2020 : I don't think the email rule this applies since the software change]*
> 
> Which e-mail rules do apply? Is it now alright to post e-mail addresses in the ads or not? There are several posts just today that include e-mail addresses.


I get your point. My mistake and I will clarify

In vBulletin you could choose to have "email contact in your profile". And the email address itself was hidden, but a click would create an email to the member.

But email contact via profile is no longer an option in this new platform, hence I changed it to no longer apply.

What was not allowed then was just posting an email address publically in the ad. Why not? because this attracted email harvesters and spammers.

So this should still apply and I will clarify the amendment.

 e. Email Enabled in your profile. Do not post email addresses in the ad.

*[Admin edit 9/11/2020 : The email in your profile no longer applies since the software change, but you must still not post your email addresses in the post as it encourages spammers]*


----------



## Dr G

Pete Thomas said:


> It was me that put up the ugly and annoying rules notice (in the old days we could do that), but I have no jurisdiction now over recommended reading or whether it has stickies. HOWEVAR I am in discussion with VS to allow us to put up big notices to help and remind people. They are looking into it.
> 
> Ideally it could be even better, so the notice instead of being above the general Marketplace forum now slaps you round the face _*when you actually start to make the ad.*_
> 
> Wish me luck please!


That sounds like a great idea, Pete.

*G'luck!*


----------



## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> G'luck!


Thanks, but don't hold your breath.


----------



## soybean

In order to keep the history of price changes in the marketplace, here's one possible work around. I did this after reducing the price on my Unison curved soprano. Using strike-through:

Reduced to $550.

*Reduced to $515*


----------



## Dr G

soybean said:


> In order to keep the history of price changes in the marketplace, here's one possible work around. I did this after reducing the price on my Unison curved soprano. Using strike-through:
> 
> Reduced to $550.
> 
> *Reduced to $515*


I don't know who that would serve. The buyer is only looking for a price.

If one wanted to show a huge reduction, then they can just start at too high a price - nothing gained.

Editing your post to show a lowered price neither associates a time stamp, nor bumps your ad to the top of the stack - not much gained unless someone is digging for deals. They should just contact the seller.


----------



## buddy lee

Dr G said:


> I don't know who that would serve. The buyer is only looking for a price.
> 
> If one wanted to show a huge reduction, then they can just start at too high a price - nothing gained.
> 
> Editing your post to show a lowered price neither associates a time stamp, nor bumps your ad to the top of the stack - not much gained unless someone is digging for deals. They should just contact the seller.


I mean the rules already severely neutered the marketplace as it was, no weekly bumps, etc. Now just forget about it. Where did the mob demanding marketplace rule reform go to anyway? I've been waiting for this big increase of "worthy" saxophone related posts but they never materialized.


----------



## Dr G

buddy lee said:


> I mean the rules already severely neutered the marketplace as it was, no weekly bumps, etc. Now just forget about it. Where did the mob demanding marketplace rule reform go to anyway? I've been waiting for this big increase of "worthy" saxophone related posts but they never materialized.


As I recall, the rules were changed because Saxismyaxe got stuck in the middle of a contested sale, and got fed up with the bickering, thus the No More Comments rule. The "Mob" thus amounted to one.

I observe that the Community can have a positive effect by having open comments, thus removing the moderators from ajudication. It is Caveat Emptor now, without any recourse to false claims. Better to have a transparent and open forum where false claims of "original lacquer" and other hyperbole is balanced by peer review. Sure, the less experienced should do their homework in researching what constitutes a reasonable deal in the Marketplace, but right now the old depository of community wisdom is gone - all the images and conversations regarding original lacquer, in particular, are gone.

I support the notion that members must have some tenure before posting a FS item, but it has proven untenable to require 50 relevant posts if there exists no metric of "relevant".

I wish us all well - especially the moderators - in reviving the Marketplace.

Regards,

George


----------



## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> but it has proven untenable to require 50 relevant posts if there exists no metric of "relevant".


There can't really be, although we did strictly apply this rule to the +1 and "me too" posts (I mean literally "me too" not the victims of Harvey)

We would just delete such posts with apolite warning they must be relevant and this was working well. Obviously we missed some, but members are welcom to report such violations. I once saw someone with 49 posts, of which 15 were +1, that member wasn't happy to see their post count go down to 35 and a suggestion that they post some at least half decent saxophone disussion.

Hopefully the like button does make it difficult to justify +1 posts.



Dr G said:


> I wish us all well - especially the moderators - in reviving the Marketplace.


Thank you, we still round the table, but hopefully we can come up with something that the majority are OK with.

You can't please everyone though


----------



## buddy lee

Dr G said:


> As I recall, the rules were changed because Saxismyaxe got stuck in the middle of a contested sale, and got fed up with the bickering, thus the No More Comments rule. The "Mob" thus amounted to one.


You're right, but then, a group of members started complaining that "there are too many FS posts in the new post section" and made a big stink of it. And regarding the contested sale, rather than deal with the two people who couldn't figure out how to be adults, I guess it was easier to just ruin it for everyone lol.

Look, I know it's hard to moderate an active forum, I've done a few of them myself before. One thing I can't stand in life is when a very small % of people ruin the fun for everyone else. That's all.


----------



## Pete Thomas

buddy lee said:


> "there are too many FS posts in the new post section"


There were quite a lot who didn't like that IIRC*. See:









Sax on the Web Forum







www.saxontheweb.net





It should be possible to filter them from New Posts, but I'd only ever request that if we had a proper poll as it isn't possible on a user filter preferences basis. An ideal would be the ability to ignore contect from specific forums, but I am pretty sure that wouldn't be possible as things are now but never say never say never. But no harm in anyone suggesting such things - note that members can start polls in the suggestions forum and this is a good way to gauge real opinion.


----------



## Dr G

Pete Thomas said:


> There can't really be, although we did strictly apply this rule to the +1 and "me too" posts (I mean literally "me too" not the victims of Harvey)
> 
> We would just delete such posts with a polite warning they must be relevant and this was working well. Obviously we missed some, but members are welcome to report such violations. I once saw someone with 49 posts, of which 15 were +1, that member wasn't happy to see their post count go down to 35 and a suggestion that they post some at least half decent saxophone disussion.


That sounds like a waste of your time. What incentive is there to bother with the rules?

It is another waste of time to say in the Rules that moderators are going to draw a hard line on people that disobey the rules, and then don't. Why not put a pause on posts to the Marketplace for people that willfully ignore the rules? For example, if someone neglects to follow the rules, give them a time out of one month for first warning, three months for the second warning, then a ban for a third infraction.



Pete Thomas said:


> Hopefully the like button does make it difficult to justify +1 posts.


Get rid of that rule, and you won't have to "enforce" it. No need to scrutinize "Looks like original lacquer to me" or "I like synthetic reeds" or "Does this green mouthpiece make me look cool?" for relevance.

Not holding my breath, but ever optimistic,

George


----------



## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> For example, if someone neglects to follow the rules, give them a time out of one month for first warning, three months for the second warning, then a ban for a third infraction.


This is normal procedure. Mods are getting used to the new platform and right now, but we do have an equivalent of the old infraction system. I hate banning people (probably only ever banned two) but really we have to just think of the community, and ideally moderate without fear of favour.



Dr G said:


> Get rid of that rule,


I would keep breathing - it was aleways harri's intention to have that rule to stop people joining purely to sell. And it does that to an extent.


----------



## Dr G

buddy lee said:


> You're right, but then, a group of members started complaining that "there are too many FS posts in the new post section" and made a big stink of it. And regarding the contested sale, rather than deal with the two people who couldn't figure out how to be adults, I guess it was easier to just ruin it for everyone lol.


But new posts to word games are alright because this is a saxophone forum... Say what?!

Yeah, I'm not into them, so I ignore them. Funny how the word game threads persist, but the Marketplace got tubed.

Now let's get back to wondering what color lacquer is best for worship music. Hmmm, I don't know that I've seen that poll yet, but as I recall white lacquer is preferred in the Church of Jimi Hendrix.


----------



## Dr G

Pete Thomas said:


> I would keep breathing - it was aleways harri's intention to have that rule to stop people joining purely to sell. And it does that to an extent.


And I agree with the intent, but doesn't the tenure rule take care of that? You don't have to know anything about saxophones, or even care, to post "Does this look like a real mouthpiece?" and similar, for 50 iterations. I have certainly witnessed enough members joining, then 6 months later showing a sudden flurry of "activity" as they scale up to sell something. I think the 50 posts requirements just drives more random contributions.


----------



## Atratr

I sent a private message to a seller but no answer. Then i was going to try posting in the thread but it says i don´t have privileges for doing so.
Is going to be like that from now?


----------



## Pete Thomas

Atratr said:


> s going to be like that from now?


It has been like that for 18 months.

The policy is under review.

However if they don't respond to a message, there is no reason for them to respond in the thread anyway. Even if we had the commenting in threads, you should not be discussing transactions or negotiating within the thread.


----------



## datsaxman

Lots of folks do not know to check their PM. 
Maybe they do not know how?

They can and will check the thread.


----------



## milandro

datsaxman said:


> Lots of folks do not know to check their PM.
> Maybe they do not know how?
> 
> They can and will check the thread.


It is very possible.

PMs are now called conversations and you get an alert in suqare symbol top right in the shape of a colored dot .

I have exchanged several PMs (or conversations with members ) but nobody has contacted me YET about my for sale items since the new format


----------



## Pete Thomas

datsaxman said:


> Lots of folks do not know to check their PM.


Surely if they are selling something, they would not neglect to check their messages?


milandro said:


> It is very possible.
> 
> PMs are now called conversations and you get an alert in suqare symbol top right in the shape of a colored dot .


As well as the alert, you also get an email notification.

There is no difference in the alert/notification whether it's a reply in a thread you are following or a message/conversation.

Hence I mentioned it is not necessary to start conducting transactions with a for sale thread.

That would be a good way to get it reverted back to no comments (if it gets changed to allowing comments that is which I think many are hoping for)


----------



## datsaxman

Pete Thomas said:


> Surely if they are selling something, they would not neglect to check their messages?


Assume whatever you wish. It is a FACT that several sellers I have sent PMs to have not replied.
This occurred very soon after the ads were posted. No. Reply.

I am happy with the "no comment" policy really. But I like facts too.


----------



## Atratr

Pete Thomas said:


> It has been like that for 18 months.
> 
> The policy is under review.
> 
> However if they don't respond to a message, there is no reason for them to respond in the thread anyway. Even if we had the commenting in threads, you should not be discussing transactions or negotiating within the thread.


I was posting in any thread without issues or limit before, and now i have no privileges to do so?


----------



## Atratr

Atratr said:


> I was posting in any thread without issues or limit before, and now i have no privileges to do so?


Sorry, i think i catch it now, i forgot marketplace rules changed.


----------



## Pete Thomas

datsaxman said:


> Assume whatever you wish. It is a FACT that several sellers I have sent PMs to have not replied.


I totally believe you, I'm not disputing that they didn't reply at all.


----------



## soybean

soybean said:
In order to keep the history of price changes in the marketplace, here's one possible work around. I did this after reducing the price on my Unison curved soprano. Using strike-through:



Dr G said:


> I don't know who that would serve. The buyer is only looking for a price.
> 
> If one wanted to show a huge reduction, then they can just start at too high a price - nothing gained.
> 
> Editing your post to show a lowered price neither associates a time stamp, nor bumps your ad to the top of the stack - not much gained unless someone is digging for deals. They should just contact the seller.


_"I don't know who that would serve"_. It was meant to serve the person who asked about that feature. I'm too lazy to go back and see who mentioned it. The idea was that we could all use the marketplace was not just buy/sell area, but also a reference for current and past values.


----------



## Dr G

soybean said:


> soybean said:
> In order to keep the history of price changes in the marketplace, here's one possible work around. I did this after reducing the price on my Unison curved soprano. Using strike-through:
> 
> _"I don't know who that would serve"_. It was meant to serve the person who asked about that feature. I'm too lazy to go back and see who mentioned it. The idea was that we could all use the marketplace was not just buy/sell area, but also a reference for current and past values.


You misunderstand me. What I meant was that it would not bear a timestamp of edit, hence not reflect a chronologic history, and therefore be of little utility. I agree that replies in a thread that capture values with respect to time is a good idea.


----------



## datsaxman

I still think that the strikethrough idea has some utility, even without dates.
Dates improve that data, but the reference is still valuable.


----------



## Dr G

datsaxman said:


> I still think that the strikethrough idea has some utility, even without dates.
> Dates improve that data, but the reference is still valuable.


I think what is useful is to have a price that cannot be edited. Else, a price can be "adjusted" at any time, and thus is not a valid record of the sale.


----------



## datsaxman

Agreed. When a subsequent post cannot be entered (is that still the case?) in a for sale thread, all is changed.

Best case scenario.


----------



## Dr G

datsaxman said:


> Agreed. When a subsequent post cannot be entered (is that still the case?) in a for sale thread, AlL iS cHaNgEd.
> 
> Best case scenario.


Editing is certainly an interesting phenomenon.


----------



## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> I think what is useful is to have a price that cannot be edited. Else, a price can be "adjusted" at any time,


If the Marketplace (now "Classifieds," goes back to _comments allowed,_ do you think in that case it is also best to go back to no editing?

I believe the initial point of the the no editing capability was because less honest people were found to be editing descriptions in order to wheedle out of a dispute.

There has always been a loophole there though, in that images hotlinked from a different server could be substituted remotely which in effect does edit the ad.

This is why if I bought something, I would download the images showing at the time of purchase.


----------



## 10mfan

*FRUSTRATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

I sent so many emails to the administrators at both places that I got email information from, and I can't get any help. 
*
This is so beyond frustrating. *

This website is losing people left and right on a daily basis because everyone is frustrated.

I have a vendor section that's not visible and i need it put back so I can use it.

*Its such a simple request.

CAN ANYONE HERE HELP???????????*


----------



## mrpeebee

Mark, I fully agree with you, that's a terrible way to treed members.

I've again brought this under the eyes of VSadmin, for what it's worth (as you know the SOTW moderators can't do much more than that).


----------



## Dr G

Pete Thomas said:


> If the Marketplace (now "Classifieds," goes back to _comments allowed,_ do you think in that case it is also best to go back to no editing?
> 
> I believe the initial point of the the no editing capability was because less honest people were found to be editing descriptions in order to wheedle out of a dispute.
> 
> There has always been a loophole there though, in that images hotlinked from a different server could be substituted remotely which in effect does edit the ad.
> 
> This is why if I bought something, I would download the images showing at the time of purchase.


Yes, I would like to see "No editing" invoked. I did not know about the hotlinked images. That could be eliminated by hosting images on the SotW server - and preserving them, but that is another thread. You make a good case for no hot links.


----------



## Dr G

10mfan said:


> *FRUSTRATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> I sent so many emails to the administrators at both places that I got email information from, and I can't get any help.
> 
> *This is so beyond frustrating. *
> 
> This website is losing people left and right on a daily basis because everyone is frustrated.
> 
> I have a vendor section that's not visible and i need it put back so I can use it.
> 
> *Its such a simple request.
> 
> CAN ANYONE HERE HELP???????????*


I hear ya, Mark. In the meantime, you can still post to the Classifieds.


----------



## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> That could be eliminated by hosting images on the SotW server


Technically yes of course, aka attachments, but that cannot be enforced.


----------



## Dr G

Pete Thomas said:


> Technically yes of course, aka attachments, but that cannot be enforced.


Could they not change the "add photos" options in the Classifieds?


----------



## Pete Thomas

Dr G said:


> could they not change the "add photos" options in the Classifieds?


In an ideal world, maybe.


----------



## 10mfan

Dr G said:


> I hear ya, Mark. In the meantime, you can still post to the Classifieds.


I don't think they understand that some of us have spent nearly 2 decades here pouring our hearts and souls out to help others with information and gear and everything else.
15,000+ posts and they can't just turn on my vendor section,* after weeks of asking????*

I know I can post in the classified section but I can only post one mouthpiece at a time. I was told you can't do multiple mouthpieces in one post.
It's so much easier and less intrusive on others to just put 20 mouthpieces in one post rather than put 20 posts up with one mouthpiece in each. (That's why some of us got a vendor section in the first place. That way we didn't dirty up the regular marketplace).

Complete and utter frustration with what's happened to this website. This used to be the coolest place to go. This place has been a part of my every day routine for nearly 2 decades. I visit here and read posts and listen to videos and all of that as a regular part of my day, regardless of whether I put up a post myself. 
If it's all about making money, then they should charge the vendors a fee per post or per month or WHATEVER....but don't ignore the many emails I've sent, and do nothing.

*FRUSTRATION!!!*


----------



## Dr G

10mfan said:


> I don't think they understand that some of us have spent nearly 2 decades here pouring our hearts and souls out to help others with information and gear and everything else.
> 15,000+ posts and they can't just turn on my vendor section,* after weeks of asking????*
> 
> I know I can post in the classified section but I can only post one mouthpiece at a time. I was told you can't do multiple mouthpieces in one post.
> It's so much easier and less intrusive on others to just put 20 mouthpieces in one post rather than put 20 posts up with one mouthpiece in each. (That's why some of us got a vendor section in the first place. That way we didn't dirty up the regular marketplace).
> 
> Complete and utter frustration with what's happened to this website. This used to be the coolest place to go. This place has been a part of my every day routine for nearly 2 decades. I visit here and read posts and listen to videos and all of that as a regular part of my day, regardless of whether I put up a post myself.
> If it's all about making money, then they should charge the vendors a fee per post or per month or WHATEVER....but don't ignore the many emails I've sent, and do nothing.
> 
> *FRUSTRATION!!!*


If it's all about money... Clearly, you and others are small taters compared to the Nike ad competing for my attention. And how 'bout the AARP ads? Chrysler? Obviously saxophones are for old farts.


----------



## 10mfan

Dr G said:


> If it's all about money... Clearly, you and others are small taters compared to the Nike ad competing for my attention. And how 'bout the AARP ads? Chrysler? Obviously saxophones are for old farts.


No doubt about that.
It's a real shame though because Harri spent a lot of years building this up into such a great resource for saxophone players.


----------



## 14470

It is confusing. How will anyone make money with a forum that doesn't work for its membership? The only way I can make sense of this is if VSadmin enables its "premium membership" to encompass a site with the features from the old platform intact. That way, we could all just pay $20 and get back to normal, which certainly was flawed but not to an extent causing members to leave. BTW, I haven't seen a single add yet, so there is no incentive for me to buy anything (unlikely that I would anyway).


----------



## reedsburn62

I can't even respond to my own for sale post, sigh.


----------



## Pete Thomas

reedsburn62 said:


> I can't even respond to my own for sale post, sigh.


Please be patient, we (SOTW staff) are doing our best:









Marketplace Classifieds Updates


The site says I'm not authorized, it's my listing! [ADMIN EDIT] This issue is being addressed See here November 2020 New Marketplace (now Classifieds) policy




www.saxontheweb.net


----------



## Dr G

reedsburn62 said:


> I can't even respond to my own for sale post, sigh.


As has been discussed here, you can edit your post if you want to revise the price or add information (see the three vertical dots in the upper right of your post). The remaining sad part is that it will not bump your ad, even if you were to cut the price in half.


----------



## sopsax

If this single data point can help you troubleshoot... I recently started a mouthpiece FS thread, telling interested parties to respond by initiating a Conversation with me. One person did so, as I later discovered. A dot _did_ appear in my Profile square, but I _had not_ received notification via email.


----------



## mrpeebee

sopsax said:


> If this single data point can help you troubleshoot... I recently started a mouthpiece FS thread, telling interested parties to respond by initiating a Conversation with me. One person did so, as I later discovered. A dot _did_ appear in my Profile square, but I _had not_ received notification via email.


Check your 'Preferences' under 'Your account', you can there enable receiving emails for conversations.


----------



## sopsax

Ahh! Thanks.


----------



## reedsburn62

So basically selling on SOTW is not user friendly anymore.


----------



## Pete Thomas

reedsburn62 said:


> So basically selling on SOTW is not user friendly anymore.


That depends on what you mean by user friendly.

A seller puts their ad up, if a buyer sees it they know the price and contacts the seller via message (aka conversation) and strikes the deal.

All that's changed recently is that sellers cannot add posts to their original post. The process of transacting is just as user friendly, probably more so given the advantages of the new conversation system over the old PM system.


----------



## VSadmin

10mfan said:


> *FRUSTRATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> I sent so many emails to the administrators at both places that I got email information from, and I can't get any help.
> 
> *This is so beyond frustrating. *
> 
> This website is losing people left and right on a daily basis because everyone is frustrated.
> 
> I have a vendor section that's not visible and i need it put back so I can use it.
> 
> *Its such a simple request.
> 
> CAN ANYONE HERE HELP???????????*


I looked into this and will reach out via Private Conversation.

Jeff M


----------



## JayeLID

Pete Thomas said:


> That depends on what you mean by user friendly.
> 
> A seller puts their ad up, if a buyer sees it they know the price and contacts the seller via message (aka conversation) and strikes the deal.
> 
> All that's changed recently is that sellers cannot add posts to their original post. The process of transacting is just as user friendly, probably more so given the advantages of the new conversation system over the old PM system.


I guess I would disagree with this.

The marketplace for individual selelrs (this is particularly what I am responding to) became un-user firendly a while ago.

Quick example...a member is selling an alto here (and indeed he IS selling an alto here, right now)...the alto is a professional model, a very GOOD professional model, but oddly and interestingly...it is stenciled a brand which doesn't have a particularly good repute. 
So, odd that this brand would have subcontracted a professional stencil from a pretty reputed mother company....

...but twice as odd that one could find a very good, pro horn for only a few hundred dollars....particularly when the same horn is $2900 new.

It WOULD be NICE to have the ability, as a viewer...to post a reply to that ad along the lines of :

"wow, great price...folks I have serviced these...this is a top-notch model horn, they are (when engraved with their mother company name) almost $3g new ".

It'd bump the ad and have it show in recent activity....and it may also get some interesting convo going. Hard to see a negative about being allowed to post such a comment.

Alas...not to be...

I can give a bunch of other potential examples as to how the current rules (yes, pre-platform change) handcuff the (individual) seller as well, having their ad slowly sink like a stone.

What if there's a mistake in the ad ? What if the seller unintentionally has misrepresented something ? Etc.

So while I understand what precipitated the change back when, I also feel (as I think most others who use the marketplace do, and have communicated consistently) that the change due to that 'event' was overreaching, and an over-reaction.

My 2 cents (mind you I have no horse in this race, personally)....


----------



## JayeLID

Pete Thomas said:


> All that's changed recently is that sellers cannot add posts to their original post.


Addendum:

This is an odd and downright baffling change, tho....it is necessary...why ????


----------



## Pete Thomas

JayeLID said:


> Addendum:
> 
> This is an odd and downright baffling change, tho....it is necessary...why ????


I can't answer that but am in discussion with VS to hopefully improve matters.



JayeLID said:


> It WOULD be NICE to have the ability, as a viewer...to post a reply to that ad along the lines of :
> 
> "wow, great price...folks I have serviced these...this is a top-notch model horn, they are (when engraved with their mother company name) almost $3g new ".
> 
> It'd bump the ad and have it show in recent activity....and it may also get some interesting convo going. Hard to see a negative about being allowed to post such a comment.


I agree, but don't shoot the messenger! We are on your side.


----------



## 14470

The way the marketplace works now is great for the professional sellers, who can announce products in threads and foster discussion to create a lot of visibility. They can effectively bump their products to their heart's delight. Players who just have occasional item for sale are even further handicapped than in the past by the new forum format. I understand that improvement hopefully is on the way, but in the interim, it would be nice that the playing field was leveled to be as fair as possible. One thread with one opening post per announcement that can be buried swiftly just like everything else.


----------



## Pete Thomas

brasscane said:


> The way the marketplace works now is great for the professional sellers, who can announce products in threads and foster discussion to create a lot of visibility. They can effectively bump their products to their heart's delight.


Marketplace is now called Classifieds and its the same for all ie now no comments, (ASAP comments allowed but still no bumping per the rules)

I think you might mean the Vendors section, specifically the new product announcements where comments are allowed. _*But this section is very specifically only for new product announcements.*_ Nobody can post used items for sale. Only new products is very clear and sepcific what the forum is for. If you see anything wrong there you should report it.


----------



## 14470

Pete Thomas said:


> I think you might mean the Vendors section, specifically the new product announcements where comments are allowed. _*But this section is very specifically only for new product announcements.*_ Nobody can post used items for sale. Only new products is very clear and sepcific what the forum is for. If you see anything wrong there you should report it.


Technicalities aside, that is exactly what I wrote. Announcing new products is de facto part of a marketplace. "Lay" members compete with professional sellers when they try to sell their items. Anyone looking for something, as for instance a mouthpiece, will readily exposed to vendor announcements but will have to dig out items from private sellers with links to dated threads underneath as suggested reading. The only way the vendor argument works if it is something that doesn't exist or for consumers who per se want new as opposed to used irrespective of the condition of the latter.


----------



## Pete Thomas

brasscane said:


> Technicalities aside, that is exactly what I wrote.


I absolutely agree, _technicalities_ was merely to adjust the terminology to what we now have. Like it or not we have to accept those , and it helps anyone new to the forum to understand what we are talking about. That's all.



brasscane said:


> The only way the vendor argument works if it is something that doesn't exist or for consumers who per se want new as opposed to used irrespective of the condition of the latter.


I agree. Note that I wasn't trying to argue on behalf of the vendors, just stating the rules as we have them. I'm not trying to justify them. I'm very much in favour of a level playing field and welcome feedback.


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