# SOTW seems to be taking a SERIOUS nosedive lately.....



## 10mfan

My 2 cents on the state of affairs here at SOTW....

*This site seems to be taking a serious nosedive lately*.

Let's try to be kinder to one another. We all share some similar loves in life, and thats why we are here.

Its normal to have varying opinions, but all the rudeness lately is a REAL TURNOFF, and unnecessary.

I'm not calling out any names, because this is a post reminding EVERYONE that it would be nice to have more decency here, overall.

It would be great to see things here take a turn to more of the civility it once had.

Thanks,
Mark


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## rhysonsax

Well said. Today, for the first time since I joined SOTW in 2003 I have "ignored" someone because of their repeated rude postings over the last few days.

Rhys


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## liggy

I can think of one guy that seems to enjoy attacking other posters and judging them to be “amateur “ but other than that person I haven’t noticed an overall decline in civility.


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## Bubba06

10mfan said:


> Its normal to have varying opinions, but all the rudeness lately is a REAL TURNOFF, and unnecessary!
> ...
> It would be great to see things here take a turn to more of the civility it once had.


Just popping in to say... I've been thinking about this for the last few years, and consider it a pretty big reason that I go through leaves/spurts of not posting here anymore. The topics we're covering here are so situational and highly subjective, and covering multi-generations. I'm not sure if it's the veil of anonymity, but so often the language/subtext used here is that our/my opinion is fact. Life is not that simple, humans are weird-- not uniform at all, and we need to realize that if we're going to have conversations across generations, countries, styles, preferences, etc.

-Bubba-


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## bb

Thanks @10mfan for making this post.
Being kind to other people is not an option, and everybody here on the forum has the right to post something that he/she recorded. It does not matter if they are outstanding pro players or a beginners. I personally think that if I don't like a player (at any level) I must still respect him, and I can listen to an another player. What's the problem? We love the same thing: music and we should create a sense of community here.


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## 10mfan

You’re welcome.
Yes, a tighter and kinder community would be great!
Show support and give encouragement to those who are not yet at the place you are at, and just remember, you were at that place at one point too.

This is why I treat everybody the same who buys something from me. I treat the guy who’s been playing one year, the exact same as I would treat the heavy weights who have bought from me.

We are all just players who love the saxophone and it would just be great to see the disrespect and nastiness disappear altogether from this site.


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## swperry1

rhysonsax said:


> Well said. Today, for the first time since I joined SOTW in 2003 I have "ignored" someone because of their repeated rude postings over the last few days.
> 
> Rhys


I've never blocked/ ignored anyone either...getting close this week though.


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## AddictedToSax

I've noticed a lot of back and forth lately, some of gets kind of nasty. Like someone above said, most of it seems to originate with one guy. It's pretty easy to skip over his comments. I'm all for being kind to one another. That's how I try to approach life. As in the real world, if I don't like someone I make it a point to avoid them at all costs. 

On the political blogs powered by Disqus it's possible to block all posts of an individual if you find them annoying. It's routine for me to block the paid political stooges. The worst thing you can do is engage them in conversation because that's why they are there; to disrupt and hijack the thread. 

The person in question here isn't that. He's a person who is rather full of himself and won't back down when someone challenges him. This too shall pass. I predict he won't stay around long.


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## super20dan

ban styles bitchly and everything will be fine


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## 10mfan

This is just a friendly post to ask everyone to try to keep it civil here so that SOTW can be an enjoyable place for everyone.
We can have different points of view and disagree on many things, but it doesn’t need to get nasty.
That’s all.


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## Sacks Of Phones

When you come across a rude post, try to ignore it. Being reactive just makes things worse (been there). If that doesn't work, use that fantastical IGNORE feature. You won't see them again.


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## Jerry K.

Yeah great feature I forget about. Used it once to great effect and considering adding the individual involved in recent discord to the disappeared list.


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## sopsax

Actually, I credit SOTW with showing me how to disagree in a way that advances & illuminates a discussion rather than causing it to deteriorate into feral bluster & size comparisons. Even the bad examples are educational, if only to demonstrate roads not to be taken. Thanks, folks!


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## fudidudi

Not a fan of "ignore" features on principle. No such thing in civilized society, and there's nothing like a bit of discord to challenge ones preconceptions and gain new insight. Bit of the good old dialectics.

Ignore lists are a bit like Douglas Adams' peril sensitive sunglasses (dork alert):
_



"Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses have been specially designed to help people develop a relaxed attitude to danger. At the first hint of trouble, they turn totally black and thus prevent you from seeing anything that might alarm you."

― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Click to expand...

_The more abrasive stuff gets really old really fast though. Thinking everything shall pass, and starting to build up a tolerance for the recurring spotlight/"pissing contest" spiel.


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## YoloSax

I wish there was more people posting here. Is there a site that I don't know about? Where are all these sax professors across the country congregating on the net? Facebook? So many saxophone players who could post useful information, guides, tips/tricks.. Even ask random questions..


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## TJS

10mfan said:


> My 2 cents on the state of affairs here at SOTW....*this site seems to be taking a serious nosedive lately*.
> 
> Man, lets try to be kinder to one another. We all share some similar loves in life, and thats why we are here.
> 
> Its normal to have varying opinions, but all the rudeness lately is a REAL TURNOFF, and unnecessary.
> 
> It would be great to see things here take a turn to more of the civility it once had.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark


Thank you for this. I just came back to the forum after a long hiatus and almost regret it after all the negativity lately. Hoping people hear your message.


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## Serafino

YoloSax said:


> I wish there was more people posting here. Is there a site that I don't know about? Where are all these sax professors across the country congregating on the net? Facebook? So many saxophone players who could post useful information, guides, tips/tricks.. Even ask random questions..


I keep hearing the action's on Facebook for various fields but I signed up for some groups across different instruments awhile back and it's just promotional stuff. I have yet to see a meaty conversation.


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## Frankmsax

10mfan said:


> My 2 cents on the state of affairs here at SOTW....
> 
> *This site seems to be taking a serious nosedive lately*.
> 
> Let's try to be kinder to one another. We all share some similar loves in life, and thats why we are here.
> 
> Its normal to have varying opinions, but all the rudeness lately is a REAL TURNOFF, and unnecessary.
> 
> I'm not calling out any names, because this is a post reminding EVERYONE that it would be nice to have more decency here, overall.
> 
> It would be great to see things here take a turn to more of the civility it once had.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark


Absolutely. I was always told while being brought up that if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I love this site for as long as I have been a member and have learned a lot here. I also took a lot with a grain of salt because everyone has different opinions on things. Not everything is everyone's cup of tea (music genres, horns, reeds , whatever). There is no need whatsoever to be negative or rude. Opinions are fine, rudeness is not.


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## allenlowe

I like argument and criticism, but there is a not-so-subtle line between disagreement and disrespect. I write a lot of historical criticism myself, and do a lot of this on Facebook as well. It's very tricky. I try to avoid criticizing contemporaries of myself because, as a working musician, it's something of a conflict of interest. I like this place, though on occasion it can get a little cliquish, but I gotta say that everyone has been so kind re my current health problems and it's been a big help to me.


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## claymorerabbit

it was me


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## AddictedToSax

sopsax said:


> Actually, I credit SOTW with showing me how to disagree in a way that advances & illuminates a discussion rather than causing it to deteriorate into feral bluster & size comparisons. Even the bad examples are educational, if only to demonstrate roads not to be taken. Thanks, folks!


Agree. I don't mind the spirited discord as long as it doesn't devolve into ugly name-calling.

As far as naming names, let's not go there.


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## bandmommy

I've been a cranky old bat lately so I'm keeping my nasty mouth shut. 
It could be the current seemingly never ending restrictive social situation that has people feeling more surly than usual. 
I know my mental health has suffered greatly this past year.


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## Sonorous1

I don’t mind at all when others have different opinions, perceptions, experiences or are looking at things through a different lens than me entirely. That’s just diversity and discussion, sharing even. I don’t like being brow-beaten or intellectually bullied for having my own opinion and sharing it with my experiences, even when I’m not some kind of accredited expert. I don’t enjoy arguing and I don’t come here for that. I come here for fun and shared love of these wonderful instruments and maybe even to learn something once in a while - but not because somebody decided to take me to task and lecture me dogmatically with their views, trying to pontificate me into submission.


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## area51recording

claymorerabbit said:


> it was me


No....it wasn't


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## Sigmund451

The world is increasingly angry and divided. Its not isolated to US politics. There is a lot going on and its hard to remember that some of it is good


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## TheAmoK

When there's a good general atmosphere on a forum, its much easier for a newbie or insecure people to make posts asking for help, if it's toxic many of these will not make the post fearing for being put down...
Mind other people, be nice ✌


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## bvhoyweg

claymorerabbit said:


> it was me





area51recording said:


> No....it wasn't


And that's how the fight started


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## claymorerabbit

area51recording said:


> No....it wasn't


Its about to be god damn it


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## claymorerabbit

bvhoyweg said:


> And that's how the fight started


UH HUH


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## claymorerabbit

I honestly love this place. Theres really nothing else precisely like it. I see the arguing and BS just like a bunch of siblings - a gigantic chaotic mess but even when it gets bad, we'd all be lying to say we dont love each other. 

Whichever one of you stepped on everybody's shoes, just remember... I'll find your ass and laugh uncontrollably at you.


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## Repentatonic

Well said Mark...........hopefully it will have the desired effect


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## JacobMW

I had remarked the same to my wife. i have found this to be one of the best forums ive ever run into, and the last week has been rather sad as its been so out of character for this place.


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## hnthere

Maybe I previously spent too much time at other forums because I noticed nothing wrong here. I'm just happy no one has said my long tones probably are short.


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## pontius

OK, guilty as charged. I apologize for adding gasoline. Sometimes it doesn't seem right to ignore or look the other way, even though it probably is the best thing to do.


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## B Flat

Well I’ve obviously missed something in the last week.


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## dextor

I have been commenting more lately cause I am in front of a computer screen all day , fortunately working. I have seen some comments which were a little rough for a bunch of musicians, I am blaming the pandemic on giving everyone a little PTSD. Basically its the best site for us on the web to hang, talk and question when your better half says go play.


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## 10mfan

Yeah, I’m just hoping the temperature will cool down here, that’s all. 
It’s not a lot to ask.


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## wanderso

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there."
- Sufi poet Rumi

But if I'm not at least a little pissed off (usually at myself) when I play hard bop, it doesn't come out right.


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## dha

I hesitate to post replies or even post my original thoughts on music, saxophone topics, general topics etc, and lately I don't have a desire to buy or sell on here either. I have been a member since 2003 and periodically have abstained coming on site for long periods of time.
I find this site is "cliquish", to say the least. I also find a wealth of false information that goes contrary to my years of experience and whatever knowledge of music I have gained from the experience. 
When I do occasionally comment, the usual suspects come out of the woodwork to pounce and let's say "bully" the poster. That's when the cliquish gang closes in like a pack of wolves.
It's a turnoff, and that is when I just cut out of here even though the clique continues to try to engage a fight. 
I will say that there are some good people and pertinant information here and aside from the shameless mouthpiece company's, using the forum to enhance their business disguised as forum caring participants, the SOTW site as whole is not too bad.
Now, unleash the hounds!


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## 10mfan

JacobMW said:


> I had remarked the same to my wife. i have found this to be one of the best forums ive ever run into, and the last week has been rather sad as its been so out of character for this place.


I agree. It can get nasty here and people certainly can disagree on many topics, but lately, its just been so over the top......enough so, that I wanted to post something just asking everyone to just take a breath. 
I am just hoping for a kinder approach.


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## ving

Some of the threads lately remind me of the feuds of the early 2000’s if any who’s been around that long remembers! I am kind of fascinated by where some people are coming from, the psychology of what drives people to respond in certain ways is something I find quite interesting. It’s unfortunate though, it must be tiring to be inhabiting such a negative space that it gets doled out on a forum like this.


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## wanderso

dha said:


> ...aside from the shameless mouthpiece company's, using the forum to enhance their business disguised as forum caring participants, the SOTW site as whole is not too bad.


Um... that was ironic, right? You did pay attention to what sub-forum you are in?


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## Grumps

fudidudi said:


> Not a fan of "ignore" features on principle. No such thing in civilized society, and there's nothing like a bit of discord to challenge ones preconceptions and gain new insight.


Many come here to escape the noise, learn, teach and interact. Promote products, promote gigs and post clips. Sometimes you're just not going to get along with someone, for one reason or another. They're not going to like you, and you may not ever like them. So long as disagreement is cordial... and maybe even playful at times... it's not a problem. But then you get folks who hold grudges. Take them from one thread to another. Nip at your heels to settle some imagined score. You go back at 'em and you have a real ruckus. I'm sorry, but I'd rather simply ignore folks who have either taken things to a personal level, or are otherwise pests. And don't get me wrong. Disagreement is the spice of life. It's how you disagree though, that's the litmus test. There are plenty of folks here I can disagree with; and they're some of my favorite members. Many of those here I'm most close to, we've gone at it. But they're good sports. They can dish it out. They can take it. Like good banter at the pub.

Bottom line though, the ignore feature makes me a better citizen here. Rather than answer every slight or get nastier in reply, a simple switch of the ignore feature makes this place more pleasurable; and my list is long indeed. That's not to say I don't ever take a member off my ignore list. In time, I'll take a peek at what they're up to and maybe think better of it. Peace in our time, you know. But lately there does seem to be a bit more tolerance for malevolence. Internet spats get attention. They get clicks. Let's hope the management isn't simply after those in allowing more free reign in this regard.


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## 10mfan

Well said, Grumps. Yes, disagreement is inevitable, so lets just do it in a kinder way.
If I hit the ignore button, I was told I won't see what someone else is posting, but that doesn't change the nastiness here. It just allows me not to see what the people on the list are writing. Thats how I understood it. I might be wrong though.
So what I am asking is that everyone just take a breath, and just try to be kinder, thats all. Its gotten hostile, and thats not a good thing.


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## lostcircuits

I don't need or use any ignore buttons. Somebody bitches at me, honestly, I think I am old enough to brush it off without getting an adrenaline rush or road rage. And often enough there is something in the distant past that I might have said or posted that got somebody upset, and while often enough I am just scratching my head about the reaction, there is always a grain of truth - or not. In the "case in point", it was just an arrogant display of childish and immature bragging and my reaction was "ma gavte la nata" 

But yes, there has been a bit more hostility lately and school-mastering instead of helping - I call it cabin fever and it'll pass, trolls will eventually move on. Live is too short to waste it on pissing contests, I leave that to my cats


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## TJS

lostcircuits said:


> But yes, there has been a bit more hostility lately and school-mastering instead of helping - I call it cabin fever and it'll pass, trolls will eventually move on. Live is too short to waste it on pissing contests, I leave that to my cats


I'm more of a dog guy, but I couldn't agree more. Life is too short. Spend it doing things you love with the people you love.


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## 134520

Unfortunately this isn't a new thing. I remember on the first account I made to post here 10+ years ago as a dewey-eyed youngster, I was told off and said I should stop playing because of the terminology I used as a 15 YEAR OLD. I still see some of those people posting today saying the same things to other new/questioning players. A few of the older posters here are just rude sometimes and (pardon my French) outright dicks others.


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## 10mfan

No doubt. This post was really just a heads up for everyone to hit the “refresh” button.

To just think about things and try to approach it with a little more kindness.


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## stomias

I have a variety of interests (Astronomy, microscopy, flyfishing/fly tying/rod building, birding, photography, history, mountain climbing/hiking, travel).......Music has alwyas been my first love though. I am a member of many fourms/users groups/bulletin boards  for all of my interests. You can find people on every one of them who will fight about the silliest things. Picture some douche fighting about the figure of a mirror or denigrating a $10,000 equatorial mount. Maybe dissing someones prediliction for pre WWII British cane rods. I like to laugh and see the absurd in life.....With politics though, I can spew vitriol with the best and am a complete as%ho*e. I have more prison time on FB than posting time.  ........................There is NO accounting for taste..


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## Mope

Too bad Gary isn't around anymore.


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## JimD

There’s been unpleasantness and griping around here for a long time, it doesn’t take much to set some people off. It actually seemed less combative to me lately, except perhaps for the odd individual, who mostly seemed like a wind-up merchant, and I found him funny and easy to ignore. These days I mostly visit, or will contribute to, the threads that are either intentionally funny or go off on a kind of surreal trajectory. I find that I can rarely be bothered to post when I know that if I don’t tread carefully, or say something that I know has a band of detractors, I’ll be attacked. Who needs it?


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## dha

wanderso said:


> Um... that was ironic, right? You did pay attention to what sub-forum you are in?


Sure do, how about you? 
I don't get your point, but thats okay.
Love and peace to all! Well, obviously not everyone!


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## 10mfan

Hi Jim, that’s why it’s a good time for everyone to just hit their own refresh button. Hopefully things will be a bit kinder here.

Sometimes it just takes a reminder. We are all at fault for that.


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## Sacks Of Phones

TrevorMitchWyatt said:


> Unfortunately this isn't a new thing. I remember on the first account I made to post here 10+ years ago as a dewey-eyed youngster, I was told off and said I should stop playing because of the terminology I used as a 15 YEAR OLD. I still see some of those people posting today saying the same things to other new/questioning players. A few of the older posters here are just rude sometimes and (pardon my French) outright dicks others.


You mean questions like this?


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## Serafino

TrevorMitchWyatt said:


> A few of the older posters here are just rude sometimes and (pardon my French) outright dicks others.


I know of one widely respected craftsman who left here years ago because of attacks by a regular. The regular is still here, indeed he appears in this thread agreeing about how things ought to be.

But every forum has a culture, a personality of its own, and you have to learn to surf it. If you come in as a noob and don't do your homework, well yeah you can get your fingers burned. And yeah it may be hard to get answers to your questions because a kind of mainstream consensus has formed so that a lot of threads get the same answers without much variance in depth. And yeah this forum has its share of misinformation (reflecting the sax world in general) or people just making sure their pet agenda is represented in every conceivable thread, but it is also filled with GEMS of useful knowledge. And yeah if you're a veteran the same old questions get boring, and changes to the culture can feel irritating.

My point being that being objective about a forum takes work, and is riddled with pitfalls. Getting the most out of any forum is an art.


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## Keith Ridenhour

I like this forum alot. Early on many years ago I got valuable advice from very good players who were genuinely wanting to help me be a better player. The advice I got was from people teaching music at univesity or playig professionally . Nowa days I know that there are many here who have tone, intonation, time, phrasing, issues either knowingly or unknowingly. So, unless someone says they are in a music program or I can hear them play on a Cd , in a band, I listen to their opinions and go whatever. I guess I'm spending much more time practicing and performing so theres less time to join the crowd outside a gym talking about the color of the machines. There are good , people here who have gotten experieince and training and have great info to give but you have to vet. I used to get more snarky than I am now. If someone is convinced that they dont need long tones, a tuner, a metromone , a teacher, any systematic way to improve, that really is their business. No longer my concern. There is too much work I need to do and too many playing opporitunties for me to work toward to fight attitude. But when some newby is sincerely wanting help I help. Just like the guys who helped me when first started here many many years ago K


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## Stretch

I'm going to miss Whaler, hope his banishment is temporary.


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## Grumps

Serafino said:


> My point being that being objective about a forum takes work...


More work then for you. I mean... you began your post with an "attack", veiled as it was. Let's avoid that please.


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## Ixthusdan

I am still new compared to most here. I have found valuable advice from many and I have found unwarranted gibberish. There is one topic that trips my trigger, and so I know to control me when it comes around from time to time. But I really do not come here for trained company professionals, but to chat with real people. People are people. Such is life.


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## rhysonsax

Serious questions coming up - I don't know the answers and would like to.

Is there a difference in how forum moderation works under the new ownership ? Have rule of behaviour for posters changed, or the way in which those rules are enforced ?

Rhys


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## Dr G

Stretch said:


> I'm going to miss Whaler, hope his banishment is temporary.


I did not see that coming. I see that Styles is gone too.

I miss Whaler.


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## nvilletele

I agree with the Rodney King sentiments (“Why can’t we all just get along?) expressed in this thread, but at the same time I recognize that, this being the Internet, there are bound to be both trolls and boors popping up from time to time. Unfortunate, but inevitable.

Some may intentionally seek to cause trouble or discord, while others are just thick and unaware of their essential obnoxiousness. It sucks but that is just the way it is, and very little can be done about it most of the time, or for long.

It would be great if everyone followed the golden rule best expressed as “Don’t be a dick,” but that is unlikely to happen so universally. My prescription, for myself and others, is to grow a thick skin and (try to) not let the bastards get you down.

But yeah, it would be nice not to have to see certain people and/or posts, without having to resort to the ignore or block function. 

On the other hand, sometimes a “lively discussion” can liven up an otherwise dull day of posts about Klangboggens, foma and granfalloons. Train wrecks and bar fights always seem to gather large crowds.


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## SteveS

Hello! I'm one of the Moderators on SOTW, and have been for several years. I started as an SOTW user sometime in the early 2000s, not long after I returned from a long absence from sax playing. (Was concentrating on vocal performance for about 20 years, but please don't judge!  ) What I liked about SOTW was all the information available as I tried to get back up to speed as a sax player again. I also enjoyed the friendships I developed. For a while, we had a local Maryland/DC SOTW users group that would get together in person to try horns, hold seminars, have guest clinicians (like Chris Vadala), buy and sell, and just basically hang out.

When I was asked to join the Moderator staff, one of my primary goals was to keep SOTW informative, entertaining, and friendly. And when "friendly" wasn't possible for whatever reason, at least "respectful." I wanted to retain the vibe SOTW had that made it such a valuable resource for me. Yes, that task as become increasingly difficult in recent years as our society has become more divided and more on edge. (No need to discuss the reasons for that right now.) We see fellow musicians griping at each other more now than ever before. As Mark S mentioned, we share such strong common interests and common bonds, it's disappointing to ever see this happen. But as we see in many public forums, some people take out their personal frustrations on strangers on the Internet. It's sad to see someone resort to that kind of childish behavior, but it happens.We don't want that here, and won't put up with it.

*I want to call your attention to the "report" feature.* See the three dots at the top of each comment? If you click on that, one of the options should be "report." If you see a posting that you believe violates the spirit of SOTW's charter of informative, entertaining, and respectful, use that feature to let the moderator staff know there's a problem. Obviously we can't read every post in every subforum, so we rely on YOU to flag these problems so we can look into them. All we can promise is we will use impartiality and best judgment to resolve the problem appropriately. We will do our best. And we do NOT play "favorites." Others have mentioned using the "ignore" feature, and often that's all you need to do if one particular person is getting on your nerves. But using the "report" feature helps us stay on top of what's going wrong.

As a gentle reminder, please remember that politics and political digressions are not allowed. There is nothing that will derail a conversation faster. Also, personal attacks are not allowed. If someone attacks you, do us a favor and report the post, and we WILL handle it. If you fire back, you instantly become part of the problem. Also, there is a zero tolerance policy for spam. Again, if you see ANY of this, *please report it*. We will deal with it, using our best judgment.

A user that has been referred to directly and indirectly on this thread has been shown the door for violating these very basic forum rules, and that's all that needs to be said about him. It was not a difficult decision.

Thanks for allowing me to ramble on a bit. I'm here to help, so PM me if you need me. The other members of the moderator staff as well.


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## pitsen3

I do not post much here, although I lurk just about every lunch break. I do ask questions now and then and always have gotten good answers. When I do say something I try to make my statement then shut up. I am definitely not an expert. On the subject of like and dislike, that is what drives us all. We make judgments all of the time but we have no right to force our feeling on others. Like I keep telling my son who likes to argue, let the others be happy fools unless they are hurting someone.


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## area51recording

bvhoyweg said:


> And that's how the fight started


No it didn't


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## SteveS

rhysonsax said:


> Serious questions coming up - I don't know the answers and would like to.
> 
> Is there a difference in how forum moderation works under the new ownership ? Have rule of behaviour for posters changed, or the way in which those rules are enforced ?
> 
> Rhys


It's only slightly different, in that some of the technical features of the forum software are no longer under the control of the moderator staff. The Forum owner has a technical staff we can talk to if there is an issue that only they can handle.

There is ABSOLUTELY no difference in acceptable behavior on the forum. (See my post above.) Regarding enforcement, moderators still have the ability to delete posts or entire threads if necessary. We can also close a thread from further comment.

Users that continue to cause problems on the forum can still be banned - temporarily or permanently. We don't like having to do that, but that option is available when needed.

Other than all that, please understand that in instances where moderators have to become involved, the decisions of the staff are not up for public debate and discussion. Most public forums have this same policy. It's nothing new, and not unique to SOTW. It's _our_ responsibility to make these decisions, and as I keep saying, we use our experience and best judgment in arriving at any such decision. Not everyone will like every decision, and we get that. But we do our best.

Hope that helps.


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## rhysonsax

SteveS said:


> It's only slightly different, in that some of the technical features of the forum software are no longer under the control of the moderator staff. The Forum owner has a technical staff we can talk to if there is an issue that only they can handle.
> 
> There is ABSOLUTELY no difference in acceptable behavior on the forum. (See my post above.) Regarding enforcement, moderators still have the ability to delete posts or entire threads if necessary. We can also close a thread from further comment.
> 
> Users that continue to cause problems on the forum can still be banned - temporarily or permanently. We don't like having to do that, but that option is available when needed.
> 
> Other than all that, please understand that in instances where moderators have to become involved, the decisions of the staff are not up for public debate and discussion. Most public forums have this same policy. It's nothing new, and not unique to SOTW. It's _our_ responsibility to make these decisions, and as I keep saying, we use our experience and best judgment in arriving at any such decision. Not everyone will like every decision, and we get that. But we do our best.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Thanks for replying so clearly in this post and the previous one.

Rhys


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## HeavyWeather77

I've been hanging here for quite a while and I've benefitted very much over the years from SOTW forum members.

Thank you, moderators, for doing an overall phenomenal job keeping things civil and "in-scope" on this forum. I lurk around a few music-related message boards, and this one tends to be one of the more civil, friendly, and welcoming overall.

With a few exceptions, I think most posters here are diplomatic, civil, and tend to take the high road. On the internet, where things tend to be published for eternity (even if you think something's been deleted... I guarantee it's been archived somewhere), I've tried to live by the "if you don't have something nice [or productive] to say, don't say anything at all" rule and I've regretted it when I've violated it. Publishing text is so very different from conversing in person: if I think I'm "abrasive but charming!" in person, the "...but charming" part will disappear once speech is transformed into print.

Many of the thoughtful observations from the previous pages of this thread serve as excellent guidelines of conduct not just here, but anywhere we find ourselves publishing words for others to read. Thank you, Mark, for starting the conversation.


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## Morph1590

Dr G said:


> I did not see that coming. I see that Styles is gone too.
> 
> I miss Whaler.


I've found Whaler's posts really informative - he's such a great player that I really appreciate him sharing his opinions oh here.

If it's not breaking forum rules could anyone shed some light as to why he's been banned?


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## Nefertiti

Dr G said:


> I did not see that coming. I see that Styles is gone too.
> 
> I miss Whaler.


I will miss Whaler also. That's too bad.


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## leycroft

The comments should always be about the subject or issue not folks turning a previous person into the issue .


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## bruce bailey

I haven't noticed anything of late. It must be in threads I don't read.


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## BariMelt

Well said Mark. Thanks for the reminder.


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## wanderso

I've noticed "Banned" under user icons, particularly when a zombie climbs out of the archives.
But here all traces seem to have been erased, every post? Even the member name is vanished: "This user's profile is not available."
That is some serious digital deletion!
Makes re-visiting those threads curious--reading the reaction when the action and all quotes have been cut out.
Onward, saxophony prevails.


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## Keith Ridenhour

Ixthusdan said:


> I am still new compared to most here. I have found valuable advice from many and I have found unwarranted gibberish. There is one topic that trips my trigger, and so I know to control me when it comes around from time to time. But I really do not come here for trained company professionals, but to chat with real people. People are people. Such is life.


Theres nothing wrong with chatting with whomever.


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## JL

Thanks Mark for asking everyone to make an effort to be more respectful and tone it down a bit. That's always a good goal. I think I missed most of the contentious threads recently since I haven't noticed a significant uptick offensive posts. But I realize it must be going on if people are getting banned.

I definitely will miss Whaler and have always enjoyed his posts, so I don't understand why he was banned and am disappointed about that.

Regarding the ignore button, I've never used it and probably never will. If someone says something that bothers me or I find offensive, I can simply ignore it without having to 'black out' the person. But that's just me.


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## swperry1

wanderso said:


> I've noticed "Banned" under user icons, particularly when a zombie climbs out of the archives.
> But here all traces seem to have been erased, every post? Even the member name is vanished: "This user's profile is not available."
> That is some serious digital deletion!
> Makes re-visiting those threads curious--reading the reaction when the action and all quotes have been cut out.
> Onward, saxophony prevails.


Usually the mods will clean up a thread by deleting posts that offend or go off topic. The offender in this case made the majority of his posts on only a few threads and all but maybe a couple were inflammatory...probably why he was just wiped out completely.


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## wanderso

I trust and admire our moderators and appreciate their hard work and their judgement, but this WAS in the back of my mind when used by more nefarious agents.
Nice touch-up, though--I don't see any silhouette in the waves or across the canals!
I'm presuming that is Stalin, don't know other two, and do you know who was erased?


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## wanderso

And for the Soviet history illiterates like me, to save you the trouble, from Wiki: "He presided over mass arrests and executions during the Great Purge. Yezhov eventually fell from Stalin's favour and power and was arrested and confessed to a range of anti-Soviet activity, later claiming he was tortured into confessing, and executed in 1940 along with most others responsible for the Purge." Shot in a basement room that he himself had constructed near Lubyanka. Beria was his deputy at one point.
Byles, hope you are OK, buddy! Put an "X sucks!" classified in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal as proof of life.


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## Hassles

We're all experiencing long-term tough times due to the pandemic. Such things easily erode ones patience just as readily as ones better judgement. I consider this needs to be taken into account and instead of banning for perpetuity perhaps enforce a short-term absence. This may provide the breathing space required to calm and settle down. We need to be nice to one another even if we get nasty from time to time. I have shrugged off some obviously snide comments from some very respectable members who should not be too quick to judge. MO


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## Reet McVouty

I took about a month off here because I felt I needed to regroup and really think about myself and why I really participate in this forum. I also felt that there were a couple people on here that always took an adverse opinion to mine, no matter what the subject. For whatever reason, I must rub some people the wrong way. Now, full disclosure, in the saxophone world I am an expert of nothing. All I have is my opinion and my experiences. 

So, in thinking about myself I've come to the conclusion that it's necessary that I adopt some guidelines in which I conduct myself on this forum and other forms of social media. I mean some sort of decorum is necessary to have meaningful conversation with others and perhaps learn a few things as well as help others with questions and concerns.

Now I try to stay away from threads that bring out negativity on my part. I'm not saying I won't present a different opinion on something, it's just not necessary for me to respond to any more Klangbogan type threads, or vintage VS modern threads or, you get the drift.

I'm also more cognizant of what I write doesn't always come off as how it is meant. In person to person conversations we have voice inflections and facial expressions that help convey our meaning, not so much here, I guess why emojis were invented.

Anyway, I'm on here now more reading what others have to say, and when I do reply to something it's with the intent that it will be meaningful and beneficial to others.


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## Hassles

I recall years ago abandoning a Blues based message list because 90% of the conversation was off-topic / it was essentially a opinion gladiators battle-ground all to willing to dismiss most things without conversation or discussion. I recall making a post about the English language and stating most people only had a small percentage of the available words in their arsenal. Far far too many simply read the words, posted commentary, without making attempts to fathom the meaning of the text before them. IF we were all the same this forum would be dead in days. Reet McVouty - I am hearing you - well compiled post.


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## swperry1

Hassles said:


> We're all experiencing long-term tough times due to the pandemic. Such things easily erode ones patience just as readily as ones better judgement. I consider this needs to be taken into account and instead of banning for perpetuity perhaps enforce a short-term absence. This may provide the breathing space required to calm and settle down. We need to be nice to one another even if we get nasty from time to time. I have shrugged off some obviously snide comments from some very respectable members who should not be too quick to judge. MO


Yeah, Second chances are fine and I think many people at least take it slow before flaming out again, but this is the second time in a few months Mr Bitchly's been banned. Nothing like an egomaniac with a persecution complex ?‍♂


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## warp x

Morph1590 said:


> I've found Whaler's posts really informative - he's such a great player that I really appreciate him sharing his opinions oh here.
> 
> If it's not breaking forum rules could anyone shed some light as to why he's been banned?


 I took a look at his last posts but can't find anything that would justify a ban. Perhaps some stuff has been deleted or is hidden for review. Anyway, it's a pity he's gone. I liked his posts and he's a really good player.


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## Dave Dunn

10mfan said:


> My 2 cents on the state of affairs here at SOTW....
> 
> *This site seems to be taking a serious nosedive lately*.
> 
> Let's try to be kinder to one another. We all share some similar loves in life, and thats why we are here.
> 
> Its normal to have varying opinions, but all the rudeness lately is a REAL TURNOFF, and unnecessary.
> 
> I'm not calling out any names, because this is a post reminding EVERYONE that it would be nice to have more decency here, overall.
> 
> It would be great to see things here take a turn to more of the civility it once had.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark


I haven't read the comments yet, but as a newbie, I'm not really seeing a big problem here. Perhaps it's the time difference making me miss stuff, but apart from the name-dropping BS thread, I haven't seen much of a problem at all, it's a pretty good forum if you ask me, I was surprised to see a post like this.


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## B Flat

warp x said:


> I took a look at his last posts but can't find anything that would justify a ban. Perhaps some stuff has been deleted or is hidden for review. Anyway, it's a pity he's gone. I liked his posts and he's a really good player.


It all that whaling business that got him banned.
That was outlawed years ago unless for research purposes.


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## bvhoyweg

warp x said:


> I took a look at his last posts but can't find anything that would justify a ban. Perhaps some stuff has been deleted or is hidden for review.


+1
Some of his comments I remembered as being a bit strange in my eyes, but nothing I would find problematic.

The other one (which we shall not name) was a master in ta(l)king down people.


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## SteveS

By the way, my PM inbox, and that of the others who volunteer their time, effort, and care to serve as moderators on this forum, is always open. The passive-aggressive use of Stalin pics and links is not the best and most grown up way to express yourself. Use your words. And if what you have to say is not directly on the topic of saxophones, music, etc, I'd encourage you to use PM and not clutter the public forum with complaints about moderator actions. 

Since forum rules do not permit public discussions of moderator activity, I can't comment why a certain individual or individuals might have been banned. But you can be assured that these decisions are NEVER taken lightly, and are agreed upon as a group. 

Group rules are for everyone - including people we all like and respect as people and as musicians.You can be very well assured that anyone who found themselves banned repeatedly disregarded our agreed-upon forum rules. There is nothing arbitrary or personal about ANY of this.

Mark (10MFan), thank you for introducing this thread and making points we should ALL consider. But I'm now closing this thread because it's going down a road we really don't need to go down.


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## Pete Thomas

I've also moved it out of the 10mfan vendor forum as this is unrelated (I hope!). More and more we get threads posted in the wrong place - this could be due to the lack of clarity we now have with the new format so a shout out to @VSadmin to please help us - we need to display the forum structure more obviously to make it easier for everyone.

Steve made a very good point, why publically discuss moderator or admin actions? This thread went down the route of the very topic it started about. Why inflame things? If you have a question that could get inflammatory please discuss it with us first and not post things that could just make things worse. If you really think we are like the Stalin regime then that makes me (us) very sad because we don't gratuitously censor like that. We work very hard to be fair and as Steve said, we all have an inbox to discuss things before making assumptions about the forum admin in general.

Another issue I have with the new format is it shows when people are "banned." I mentioned this in another thread. It doesn't necessarily mean that the member has been banned - it might just mean they have requested an account closure. Or it could be a very temporary ban based on the automatic yellow/red card system.

Historically a "ban" has been our only way of deleting an account, ie a self requested closure. I'm again hoping that @VSadmin can help us make this less contentious and be able to make this more obvious. Fingers crossed but no breath holding.


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