# Bumping clarification



## nvilletele (Dec 16, 2014)

Just seeking a clarification.

The classifieds rules appear to allow bumping after two months:
“You may not bump posts in the classifieds or vendors section until at least two months at which point you may bump or request deletion in order to relist.”​
But a later post in the rules section states:
“Due to blatant disregard of the NO BUMPING rule, the following will take place:

1. First offense, the ad will be deleted with a warning left in its place.
2. If the offender does it again, their access to the Marketplace will be revoked.”​
To my mind, this latter mention of a “No Bumping“ rule does not affect the permissibility of bumping after (every?) two month period. So may I assume we can still bump every two months? 

Thanks.


----------



## extradarcafe (Dec 7, 2008)

Bump


----------



## bandmommy (Jul 4, 2007)

I think a bump every 2 months would be acceptable if it were to reduce the price or throw in a little something extra with the sale item. 
Bumping just to bump might lead to the second set of rules.


----------



## swperry1 (Aug 14, 2010)

bandmommy said:


> I think a bump every 2 months would be acceptable if it were to reduce the price or throw in a little something extra with the sale item.
> Bumping just to bump might lead to the second set of rules.


Aren’t you a mod? OP’s not looking for an opinion… What’s the actual rule?


----------



## bandmommy (Jul 4, 2007)

Excuse me. Some of the rules are a little confusing even for me, who's only been a moderator for a few months. 
If you don't like my 'opinion' you can contact SteveS for clarification. He's our Administrator.


----------



## nvilletele (Dec 16, 2014)

Under the current rules, there is already specific express mention of price reductions, etc. as being exempt from the current No bumping rule.

There is also direct separate mention that bumping every two months is ok in the current rules.

the latter mention of the No bumping rule to my mind simply relates to punishment for violation of the (current) rules, and does not modify the rule permitting bumps after two months (from the last time bumped). 

I think the wording is clear but still thought clarification would be helpful, so I asked.


----------



## swperry1 (Aug 14, 2010)

bandmommy said:


> Excuse me. Some of the rules are a little confusing even for me, who's only been a moderator for a few months.
> If you don't like my 'opinion' you can contact SteveS for clarification. He's our Administrator.


Just pointing out a reality: we have mods that don’t know the rules. Have to assume mods are still unpaid even though the site draws revenue. Nothing against you or anyone else except the owner of the forum these days.


----------



## bandmommy (Jul 4, 2007)

nvilletele said:


> Under the current rules, there is already specific express mention of price reductions, etc. as being exempt from the current No bumping rule.
> 
> There is also direct separate mention that bumping every two months is ok in the current rules.
> 
> ...


That would be my interpretation of the rule as well. 
I apologize for not being 'on top' of every forum rule. Generally my duties are deleting objectionable posts and busting newbs trying to buy/sell outside of the marketplace. 
If you need a more definitive answer SteveS would be the guy to ask.


----------



## Tranechaser (Jun 12, 2015)

Why all the rules? Because we’ve always done it that way and we don’t want to evolve!


----------



## PigSquealer (Dec 27, 2017)

The rules were made to keep the saxophone community decent and honest here. Harry wanted it that way to keep people from exploding the site. Honest people with honest product fairly priced don’t need to bump. Someone honestly looking will look.…all the way down the listings. 
There are plenty of other places to list items (with & without fees) and join the rat pile.


----------



## Dr G (Feb 2, 2003)

Tranechaser said:


> Why all the rules? Because we’ve always done it that way and we don’t want to evolve!


Check out some of the other forums. AcousticGuitarForum is a great example of a marketplace with more bumps than ads on most days.

What is your idea of ”evolution”? What rules would you like to see changed?


----------



## Dr G (Feb 2, 2003)

nvilletele said:


> Just seeking a clarification.
> 
> The classifieds rules appear to allow bumping after two months:
> “You may not bump posts in the classifieds or vendors section until at least two months at which point you may bump or request deletion in order to relist.”​
> ...


That comment regarding NO BUMPING was from 2019. The rules, as they currently stand, were last edited in 2021.









IMPORTANT - *** RULES - GENERAL POSTING, CLASSIFIED...


[Edited Sept 3 2021 for clarification] These rules are specific to the SOTW forums and are in addition to the Verticalscope Terms of Use. These have now been reformatted for clarity. There are no new rules although some rules previously only written elsewhere are now included so all rules are...




www.saxontheweb.net






You may not bump posts in the classifieds or vendors section until at least two months at which point you may bump or request deletion in order to relist. Bumping includes: still for sale, sold, thank you, +1, PM sent. When items are sold please change the thread title prefix. You may reply with a price reduction >2%. Do not post a reply to add to, or remove an item from, the thread. Either edit the first post if appropriate or start a new ad.
Bottom line, as the rules state: Don’t bump (add only a comment to raise its priority in the stack of ads). If you want to get attention to your ad for an item that‘s not selling, consider reducing the price (by at least 2%).

P.S. Please note that I am not defending the rules, but trying to explain them. I, too, would be happy with a different set of rules, but these are what stand, and do seem to work well for most people. They address previous issues of abuse, and are an evolution from the previous Marketplace.


----------



## VSadmin (Mar 20, 2017)

Lopping in @SteveS for this one.

Do we need to edit to take down some older legacy rules?

If so feel free to as the local Mod/Admin team handles the day-to-day operations and community-specific rules. 

Jeff


----------



## Tranechaser (Jun 12, 2015)

Dr G said:


> Check out some of the other forums. AcousticGuitarForum is a great example of a marketplace with more bumps than ads on most days.
> 
> What is your idea of ”evolution”? What rules would you like to see changed?


I liken it to when I get a new assignment in a new group at work. When I go in and the rules don’t make sense, sometimes it’s a case of “we’ve always done it this way” and no other good reason. That’s when you start to figure out which rules still make sense, I’m sure you saw that several times during your career.

In this case, you have a relatively new Moderator that is discovering contradicting rules and being asked to explain something that doesn’t make sense to me either. Maybe it’s a good time to use that fresh eyed view and question if we really need 2 different rules on bumping?

I’ve shared my suggestions on what I would like to see several times, but most don’t agree with me for various reasons (and that’s totally cool).  I would like to see the marketplace go back to the wild Wild West. Let us comment on prices and make it a “use at your own risk” scenario. To police the board, you enable the reputation function. Enough cumulative negative rep and you’re automatically banned. That would lessen the workload on the Moderators and be a lot of fun for us!


----------



## Dr G (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks, Tranechaser. 

We don’t have two different rules, just a lil’ debris that needs to be cleared from the thread that contains the rules. I agree that a “reputation” function could be interesting. My concern there is that there are a great many people with little credible experience, yet strong biases based on “‘net knowledge”. I, too, preferred having knowledgeable people comment when FS ads were either misleading or just wrong. On the other hand, bumping is sooooo tiresome.

Cheers,
George


----------



## nvilletele (Dec 16, 2014)

Dr G said:


> That comment regarding NO BUMPING was from 2019. The rules, as they currently stand, were last edited in 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are correct that the post about how penalties for breaking the no bumping rule would be imposed is from 2019, and the rules, posted in 2006, were edited for "clarification" in 2021. 

In any case, the 2019 post about how penalties are imposed is really irrelevant. I appreciate you pointing out its chronology which further shows this.

What I don't get is how you can see the words "You may not bump posts in the classifieds or vendors section until at least two months at which point you may bump or request deletion in order to relist. Bumping includes: still for sale, sold, thank you, +1, PM sent." and think that means no bumping is allowed. 

The rules clearly state that bumping is allowed after 2 months. And that is not only to reduce price. 

There is no issue about new mods contradicting rules or anything. The rules clearly permit bumping after two months. Your assertion that the rules state "Don’t bump (add only a comment to raise its priority in the stack of ads)." is simply wrong. 

The rules say "You may not bump posts in the classifieds or vendors section until at least two months at which point you may bump or request deletion in order to relist. Bumping includes: still for sale, sold, thank you, +1, PM sent." 

You can reduce the price anytime. You may bump after 2 months. That's what the rules say.

Sorry now I was confused at first and sought clarification.


----------



## SteveS (Feb 3, 2003)

VSadmin said:


> Lopping in @SteveS for this one.
> 
> Do we need to edit to take down some older legacy rules?
> 
> ...


I'm very much in favor of re-evaluating the rules, particularly the older rules.

Here's a perfect example - At one point it was decided that you couldn't list multiple items in one ad. I think I know why that was instituted, but we don't need to get into all of that here. I don't personally enforce that.

One good reason to re-evaluate the rules is the forum software has changed. At one point, it was possible for the user who posted an ad to add to it if there were revisions, but others could NOT add to the thread. That functionality does not seem to exist anymore.

I did not write the bumping rule, but the "spirit" of the rule is clear. There are people who get really "bump happy." If you allow casual bumping, everybody will do it just to keep up. Then it's a mess. Everybody wants THEIR ad near the top!

The rule, as written, seems reasonable overall. If your item hasn't sold in two months, you are probably inclined to re-list it. But that just creates one MORE ad. Bumping the original would be easier for all concerned. And two months seems like a reasonable duration.

If you want to reduce the price to generate more interest, go for it. You get a free bump for your trouble. But reduce by how much? $1?? There has to be some meaningful minimum. The writer of this rule said 2%. Sure, why not. That's actually kinda low, but fine.

As for the penalty for just bumping whenever you feel like it, we can discuss.

SOTW will never be a Wild, Wild West marketplace. Go to Craig's List for that. As long as I've been on here, I've always liked the way I either recognized someone, or could peek at their posting history, before I bought from them. That comes with the concept of SOTW being a "community."

The current software does offer a means of rating buyers/sellers, and I believe there is documentation for using that. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Nobody "likes" rules. I get that. But I've been around SOTW long enough to know without an agreement of how we'll conduct ourselves and interact with each other here, this place could become pretty trashy in a hurry. And as for Marketplace/Classifieds rules, they exist in an attempt to raise the confidence level in buying/selling, and to make a level playing field - Hence "no bumping," no hype-y descriptions, and that sort of thing.

The staff will discuss this amongst ourselves. Feel free to ask about anything that concerns you. You can PM me anytime, and I'll answer you as soon as I'm able. But just, please, lighten up with the moderator chop busting. It's a bad look. The moderators here are all volunteers, and all became moderators because of a desire to TRY to keep SOTW a useful, informative, and FRIENDLY place for sax players to exchange information. Which is to say we're doing our best.


----------



## VSadmin (Mar 20, 2017)

10-4, feel free to review and revise with the team to what works best for SOTW.

You can edit any of the stickies and let us know if you need any help. 

Jeff


----------



## PigSquealer (Dec 27, 2017)

All I ask is that the format it is respectful of Harry‘s original intentions. Friendly honest community exchanges. I have no problem with the old format of comments. If anyone’s interested look at bring a trailer.
The best vintage and classic cars for sale online | Bring a Trailer 
The auctions bring out good information for a potential buyer. If the seller is a jerk, well that comes out too. Wild Wild West? All I can say is north of $250k USD it’s good to know what you’re buying from another persons perspective. Good or bad.
$100 Saxophone is no different. It’s somebody’s hard earned cash ! They’re buying what they can afford. No shame in that. Exactly the reason the rules exist. Even if it’s somebody bumping to make a buck and eat.


----------



## SteveS (Feb 3, 2003)

Not sure what you’re advocating exactly. We want friendly, civil, respectful communication here. People have been shown the door over the years for refusing to be that way. 

Comments on for sale ads can be okay within reason. “Price heckling,” as I call it, is not okay. This means if you think an item is overpriced, don’t lose sleep over it. It will either sell, sell for less, or not sell at all. Not anyone else’s place to make a fuss over it. 

Price negotiation should ALWAYS take place in private messages. 

The thing that bugs me the most is the fact that the majority of comments come from people not even interested in the item. Then it just becomes noise. We HAVE discussion forums. Lots of them. For sale is not intended to be one. 

I’m not sure if you’re defending bumping because someone “has to eat.” That’s not clear from your post. We just don’t want empty bumping here because if one seller bumps, others will. It gets out of hand. We want a level playing field for all sellers. It’s a fair approach, and that’s how we’ll do it here.


----------



## JL (Feb 3, 2003)

Thanks Steve! I think the rules on the marketplace make a lot of sense. It's fair to allow bumping for a (reasonable) price reduction. That seems to be the only legitimate reason to bump, at least in the short term. If an item hasn't sold in 2 months, it also seems fair to bump it then. And finally, at first, I didn't understand not allowing comments, but just thinking about it for a few minutes, it makes perfect sense not to have dozens of posts commenting on the price, quality, or condition of the item by lots of folks who aren't even interested in buying it. Questions for the seller can be addressed in a PM or email. Seems fair enough to me.


----------

