# Page layout?



## Carl H.

Did the page layout just get changed?

The information runs full width, with the post underneath it also full width.


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## gary

Carl H. said:


> Did the page layout just get changed?


Yes. And IMO it Bites it!

Harri - please, I don't know about others, but this new format squeezes my pages and post windows. It's very constricting. My vote goes for taking that Mauriat ad off of the left side of the forum page and putting it back at the top where, I believe, it was.


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## Reedsplinter

Carl H. said:


> Did the page layout just get changed?
> 
> The information runs full width, with the post underneath it also full width.


Big difference I notice is the P. Mauriat ad on the left.


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## gary

Reedsplinter said:


> Big difference I notice is the P. Mauriat ad on the left.


...and your avatar is no longer on the left side with the post window to its right. IMO even more wasted space than before.

edited shortly thereafter: Whoah, hey. Now they're back on the left side, LOL. A work in progress, as the saying goes I suppose.


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## Grumpie

Wow, this doesn't make reading any better, Seems very unpleasant to the eyes (even with the widescreen I have). The big headers above each post make it look a bit messy.


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## retread

Simple solution, guys. Buy the left banner space as soon as it's available, then tell Harry you don't want a banner there, but he can keep the money. If the left banner provides funds needed to keep SOTW alive, I have no problem with it. It's normal for people to dislike change, but we soon become accustomed to new formats.

And welcome back, Kessler.


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## Reedsplinter

retread said:


> Simple solution, guys. Buy the left banner space as soon as it's available, then tell Harry you don't want a banner there, but he can keep the money. If the left banner provides funds needed to keep SOTW alive, I have no problem with it. It's normal for people to dislike change, but we soon become accustomed to new formats.


Hmm. I LOVE the ad. Love it, love it.

it doesn't cost me a dime, and it pays the bills!


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## gary

retread said:


> If the left banner provides funds needed to keep SOTW alive, I have no problem with it.


It ain't the what, it's the where.


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## Harri Rautiainen

*Left colums*



retread said:


> Simple solution, guys. Buy the left banner space as soon as it's available, then tell Harry you don't want a banner there, but he can keep the money. If the left banner provides funds needed to keep SOTW alive, I have no problem with it. It's normal for people to dislike change, but we soon become accustomed to new formats.


Do I hear any bids? 

I thought that banner would need more horizontal space.
At any rate, I change it back the previous lay-out, and it look now reasonable to my eye. The users with a 640x800 screen may complain, though.

The reason for the banner ad: retread formulated pretty well above.


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## hakukani

Mine stopped the avatar-all-the-way-across mode, but PM banner is still there.


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## saxmanglen

No likey PM banner at left.


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## hakukani

saxmanglen said:


> No likey PM banner at left.


I wouldn't mind it so much on the right.


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## saxmanglen

hakukani said:


> I wouldn't mind it so much on the right.


I'd like it mo' better on bottom.


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## Harri Rautiainen

hakukani said:


> I wouldn't mind it so much on the right.


What would make a difference if it were on right column?


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## Harri Rautiainen

saxmanglen said:


> I'd like it mo' better on bottom.


Believe me, this thread is not a poll. :!:


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## hakukani

I think it would be better on the right. As I scroll down, It's white space anyway.

....and we're much more likely to accidently click it if it were near the scroll bar...


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## Grumpie

Harri Rautiainen said:


> What would make a difference if it were on right column?


Maybe Haku has got a point there (only this time haku, only this time  ). It will let the posts start at the full left which maybe gives a more naturel feel for reading.


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## saxmanglen

Harri Rautiainen said:


> Believe me, this thread is not a poll. :!:


It's nice seeing Kessler back too!

What if all the banners where at the top moving the forum page slightly downward? Maybe even sizing the banners a bit larger.

Just a thought.....


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## retread

hakukani said:


> ....and we're much more likely to accidently click it if it were near the scroll bar...


Your talents may not be fully utilized in education. You'd make onehellofa ad man...inventive and slightly devious.


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## Mope

I suddenly have an overwhelming urge to buy a P.Mauriat.


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## hakukani

retread said:


> Your talents may not be fully utilized in education. You'd make onehellofa ad man...inventive and slightly devious.


Convincing teenagers that they need to be educated takes deviousness and inventiveness. Thanks for the compliment.


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## Harri Rautiainen

saxmanglen said:


> It's nice seeing Kessler back too!
> 
> What if all the banners where at the top moving the forum page slightly downward? Maybe even sizing the banners a bit larger.
> 
> Just a thought.....


Good suggestions, saxmanglen:

However, I've made some contractual arrangements already, and I am afraid that we have to live with them for time being.

The whole banner ad placement is worth of thinking again in the future. For some people they are pain in the neck, for many the banners pertinent to the forum's topics, will ad more information. Besides donations, the banners are a steady funding source, and we just have to live with them. I do not plan to increase the number of banners, though.


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## saxmanglen

Harri Rautiainen said:


> Good suggestions, saxmanglen:
> 
> However, I've made some contractual arrangements already, and I am afraid that we have to live with them for time being.
> 
> The whole banner ad placement is worth of thinking again in the future. For some people they are pain in the neck, for many the banners pertinent to the forum's topics, will ad more information. Besides donations, the banners are a steady funding source, and we just have to live with them. I do not plan to increase the number of banners, though.


Harri,

Thanks for sharing a few of the details. I figured the larger banner was a newer/rewritten contract with the presence of Kessler Music again. (glad to see Dave back!)

With that information, I'd lean toward the suggestion Hakukani made of placing the larger banner to the left side, if possible or agreeable with the advertiser? This allows for a better reading flow from left to right IMHO.

Regards,

Glen


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## gary

Well then, as an alternative for me - Sometime back someone posted how you could turn off the animation in ads, etc. Anyone want to share that? The blinking not just on this ad but on other pop-ups etc I get from time to time really distract me. Any help? Thanks.


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## martysax

I discussed this topic with a subliminal advertising executive for a moment.


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## saxmanglen

martysax said:


> I discussed this topic with a subliminal advertising executive for a moment.


Did he give you a free CD to listen too? 

And, do you now have an uncontrolable urge to sell Amway?


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## martysax

saxmanglen said:


> Did he give you a free CD to listen too?
> 
> And, do you now have an uncontrolable urge to sell Amway?


I believe he mentioned one.

BYW, I have no uncontrollable urges. I'm Jewish!


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## spartacus

^ And a closet Republican


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## hakukani

saxmanglen said:


> Did he give you a free CD to listen too?
> 
> And, do you now have an uncontrolable urge to sell Amway?


The Plan! The Plan!

Who's your diamond?


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## Reedsplinter

hakukani said:


> The Plan! The Plan!
> 
> Who's your diamond?


Argh, you've actually SOLD Amway! You know the secrets of the Temple!


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## martysax

spartacus said:


> ^ And a closet Republican


That's my wife, and she's not in the closet.

What were you doing in my closet anyways?


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## retread

martysax said:


> What were you doing in my closet anyways?


Reminds me of a Minnesota joke. The punch line is "Yumpin' Yiminy! Yingle Yangle! Yingle Yangle!"


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## hakukani

Reedsplinter said:


> Argh, you've actually SOLD Amway! You know the secrets of the Temple!


Nope. I just have done sound for many, many monthly meetings, and two or three conventions. I used to do sound for anyone that would pay me. Presbyterian, Baptist, Catholic, Mary Kay, Amway, Death Metal, Shriner...

Amway paid pretty well, and promptly, and as a side effect, I'm completely immune.


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## Harri Rautiainen

gary said:


> Well then, as an alternative for me - Sometime back someone posted how you could turn off the animation in ads, etc. Anyone want to share that? The blinking not just on this ad but on other pop-ups etc I get from time to time really distract me. Any help? Thanks.


gary,
in most browsers loading images automatically is an option.

In Firefox go to "Options" and there is a box "Load images automatically" under "Content".


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## tjontheroad

Mope said:


> I suddenly have an overwhelming urge to buy a P.Mauriat.


+1

Left side flashing banners are annoying at the least. It's distracting in a non-Pamela Anderson way. It causes waisted space when scrolled down the page "below the fold" as they say in the newspaper biz. At worst, and in my case, I will not buy a product that's marketed in way I feel is impeding my reading the content I'm after. It's just no fun.


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## Reedsplinter

tjontheroad said:


> +1
> 
> Left side flashing banners are annoying at the least. It's distracting in a non-Pamela Anderson way. It causes waisted space when scrolled down the page "below the fold" as they say in the newspaper biz. At worst, and in my case, I will not buy a product that's marketed in way I feel is impeding my reading the content I'm after. It's just no fun.


Were you considering buying one, or are you just saying this to startle the sponsor?


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## Carl H.

Maybe a location just above the quick reply box? Everyone who uses the new posts button, or reads down to the last post will see it there, as opposed to the very bottom of the page which I seldom see.


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## tjontheroad

Reedsplinter said:


> Were you considering buying one, or are you just saying this to startle the sponsor?


Nope, I didn't GAS for a PM before today... or after. I don't think I'm capable of startling anyone here either.

Back to practice now.

Peace :hippy2:


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## gworthey

Hmmmm... anyone else find themselves scrolling down the page just to get past the annoying banner? I wonder what I missed?




BTW- Glad to see Kessler back, also.


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## Pete

Mmmm. I'm not liking the side banner, either. It really throws the page off. Especially on my "main" flat panel monitor: I have it oriented "portrait", not "landscape".


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## SAXISMYAXE

retread said:


> Simple solution, guys. Buy the left banner space as soon as it's available, then tell Harry you don't want a banner there, but he can keep the money. If the left banner provides funds needed to keep SOTW alive, I have no problem with it. It's normal for people to dislike change, but we soon become accustomed to new formats.
> 
> And welcome back, Kessler.


BINGO!
In my best Ed McMahon "You are correct Sir".


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## Reedsplinter

Reedsplinter said:


> Hmm. I LOVE the ad. Love it, love it.
> 
> it doesn't cost me a dime, and it pays the bills!


Bango bongo (sounds kinda jazzy, don't it?)


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## Pete

Further: the spacing/cell size/text boxes are considerably off for www.saxontheweb.net in Firefox.

Haven't checked in Opera (don't have it installed) and Safari (my Mac's at work).


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## Morry

I agree that the banner to the left is odd. In Western culture, where you read from left to right, the uneveness caused by the banner to left is visually unappealing. You'll notice that almost every commercial website puts ads to the right for that reason.


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## Reedsplinter

Pete said:


> Further: the spacing/cell size/text boxes are considerably off for www.saxontheweb.net in Firefox.
> 
> Haven't checked in Opera (don't have it installed) and Safari (my Mac's at work).


It looks fairly OK on my Mac in Safari, but I have a huge screen, so it can spread out, and the banner doesn't take up the universe. On my Dell laptop (like now) it's another matter.


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## Harri Rautiainen

Pete said:


> Further: the spacing/cell size/text boxes are considerably off for www.saxontheweb.net in Firefox.
> 
> Haven't checked in Opera (don't have it installed) and Safari (my Mac's at work).


Pete,
are you talking of Firefox on Windows?
The page looks OK on my Firefox.


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## retread

Harri, my apologies for misspelling your name. I had a temporary brain cramp.


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## spartacus

As Harri said, in Firefox go to options > Content
Check “Block popup windows
Uncheck “Load images automatically”
Uncheck “Javascript”
Uncheck “Java”

No ads, no avatars, looks weird but gets rid of ads and popups

Another alternative is a program called AD Cruncher that will delete the ads $25.00
There are freebies listed on CNET downloads that will also get rid of ads. Have not tried them

I don't care about the ads, I just bought a 20" screen with a new HP that will arrive next week so I dont think ads will take up that much space.


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## Mike_K

gworthey said:


> Hmmmm... anyone else find themselves scrolling down the page just to get past the annoying banner? I wonder what I missed?


Yep. With ads like this that annoy me I just end up cursing the company in the ad. The more time I spend on the forum with the new layout, the more I am starting to dislike P. Mauriat.

And for the record - the animated RooPads ad is annoying as well. How long before we see the ad with the flashing iPhone and "click here for a free iPhone!".

And I agree - it is nice to see Kessler back.

I need to press Submit now before I have an epileptic seizure. (Okay, it's not that bad - but it might be worth while to check out the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines -- *Ensure that moving, blinking, scrolling, or auto-updating objects or pages may be paused or stopped.*)


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## Rackety Sax

tjontheroad said:


> +1
> 
> Left side flashing banners are annoying at the least. It's distracting in a non-Pamela Anderson way. It causes waisted space when scrolled down the page "below the fold" as they say in the newspaper biz. At worst, and in my case, I will not buy a product that's marketed in way I feel is impeding my reading the content I'm after. It's just no fun.


I have a suggestion for addressing the wasted space - make the ads float down the page as you scroll. No wasted space, and since the ads will be on the screen longer you can charge more for them. A win-win solution for everyone. :twisted:


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## Reedsplinter

chitownjazz said:


> I have a suggestion for addressing the wasted space - make the ads float down the page as you scroll. No wasted space, and since the ads will be on the screen longer you can charge more for them. A win-win solution for everyone. :twisted:


And we all get to spend ALL our time looking at them!:shock:


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## lhoffman

Hey, but really, would it be that much more difficult to put the ad on the right instead of the left? It would make the page much more readable.


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## Harri Rautiainen

lhoffman said:


> Hey, but really, would it be that much more difficult to put the ad on the right instead of the left? It would make the page much more readable.


Many of us learned to read before Al Gore invented the Internet.
A newspaper page is divided into 6-8 columns. The reading won't necessary start from the left of the page? 

If the banner were not on the left there would be the column containing the user name, avatar etc. The message text won't start from the far left anyway.

Did you ever read this page: http://www.saxontheweb.net/Rock_n_Roll/RockSax22.html

Should I change the lay-out for all SOTW article pages which have the bio/advertising column on the left?


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## Mike_K

Frankly, I don't care what side of the page it's on - but for the love of all that is good, please replace it with a non-animating version.


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## hakukani

Like my students say:

'I'm over it, already.' 

I am now habituated to it and don't even see it.


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## Adam

Well, as had been said already, the add on the left really screws with the page layout and looks amateurish. I have a tough time understanding how anyone could think that was a good idea... Add to that the animation (including the ad above), and I find it repulsive to the point that I would go out of my way to avoid these products altogether. The Kessler ad is fine and serves it's purpose. These other flashing ads are obnoxious to say the least... :x


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## Pete

At this point, I'm just looking at how the discussion is going.

I have asked for my own banner on SOTW for my various calendars in the past -- and I sent an e-mail to Harri asking for one for this upcoming year's one -- but I was hesitant: I don't like banner advertisements, period, but if they can help pay for $website, I can accept non-flashing ads that don't get in the way of my enjoyment of the website.

In my case, it's more than "get used to it": I have to change my monitor's orientation. Other folks will have to change their resolution. And all this for just this website.

I also note that the bottom "menu bar" of this page, which has the "Default Style" menu and such, is much longer than the top "menu bar" (which starts with "User CP"). That may mean, simply, that the banner's just in the wrong vBulletin "element" -- and if it gets placed in the right one, I'll use GreaseMonkey on my local boxen to get rid of the extra white space and fix the margins.

Regarding Harri's comment about the bios and such on the SOTW main, to tell you the truth, I don't go there much. I just went there to check to see if the page layout looked wrong for me. It does. I have FF Portable 2.0.0.6 (the latest) on a Windows XP SP2 box. I can provide screen shots, if requested.

Harri, if you are hurtin' for cash for this website, even with the ongoing fundraisers, you should have mentioned it. I bet that most, if not all, of the people that have complained about the layout would have sent cash.

Suggestion: load a different vBulletin Style ("theme") that has NO advertisements or banners and allow people that donate the ability to use it. There's a nice free theme at http://www.themesbydesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=313, but I wouldn't mind just the original.


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## candiceartisan

At least you guys are able to log in! For over one month I have been having problems doing so! The only way I am able to get on is to hit one of the reply buttons. Then a box comes up asking to log on. I click "Remember me" and it never does. I am looking on the pages for "Todays posts" and it's not there anymore. Can't access private messages either. This is the only thread I was able to post on. Don't understand what the devil is going on!
Candy


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## Carl H.

Candace, try clearing out your cookies. Sometimes that does it.


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## Reedsplinter

Carl H. said:


> Candace, try clearing out your cookies. Sometimes that does it.


But EVERYONE is losing their cookies over that ad!


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## Harri Rautiainen

Pete said:


> ..........................
> Regarding Harri's comment about the bios and such on the SOTW main, to tell you the truth, I don't go there much. I just went there to check to see if the page layout looked wrong for me. It does. I have FF Portable 2.0.0.6 (the latest) on a Windows XP SP2 box. I can provide screen shots, if requested.
> .............


Please send me screen shots, Pete.
I have limited test possibilities, and want to correct what is wrong.

I thank you for your other constructive suggestions, and will take them under advisement.


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## Harri Rautiainen

*Learn to use your browser*



Mike_K said:


> ....................................
> 
> I need to press Submit now before I have an epileptic seizure. (Okay, it's not that bad - but it might be worth while to check out the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines -- *Ensure that moving, blinking, scrolling, or auto-updating objects or pages may be paused or stopped.*)


On the Forum site I do nothing to prevent. It is up to you and your browser settings.


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## retread

Carl H. said:


> Candace, try clearing out your cookies. Sometimes that does it.


And make sure your computer is set to accept cookies.


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## retread

This thread is starting to remind me of that old song, "The Days of Whine and Roses" Or was that "Wine"?


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## Reedsplinter

retread said:


> This thread is starting to remind me of that old song, "The Days of Whine and Roses" Or was that "Wine"?


Whine and Cookies yum

I'm of the same opinion as Hak. I'm acclimated. I don't even see the ad any more -- and no subliminal urges to buy PM have bubbled up my GAS pipe.

Let's face it: this is a terrific site in terms of content and the experience it offers; aesthetically, it's not much, even without the ads. If management needs to sell ads to keep the door open, I'm game.


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## jazzbluescat

Hey Harri, 
That side banner would be better at the top or bottom. It gives the appearance of putting the squeeze on the main body of SOTW, making me feel kinda twisted/uptight inside. Kinda annoying, Harri. 
However, if you'll lose money changing it, leave it and I'll just have to suffer.
Regards,
jazzbluescat


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## candiceartisan

Carl,
Cookies have been cleared three times. That did not solve the problem. I sent a message to Harri a few hours ago, telling him I've still got problems. He E-mailed back and asked if I am getting an error message. No error message. The problem is that the site doesn't recognize me and I have to go through a lot just to be able to log on. Each time it does not remember me, even though I tell it to! Gee, doesn't a lady sax player deserve better treatment? If I weren't a Scorpio, I would have given up by now!
Candy


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## saxmanglen

Allright everyone,

Who's going to do start the fundraiser/collection to buy out the Mauriat banner?










I am just kidding.


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## Morry

Harri Rautiainen said:


> If the banner were not on the left there would be the column containing the user name, avatar etc. The message text won't start from the far left anyway.


That's true Harri, but the anchor for the content would be at the left. That feels more comfortable for Western readers.


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## Pete

Harri Rautiainen said:


> Please send me screen shots, Pete.
> I have limited test possibilities, and want to correct what is wrong.
> 
> I thank you for your other constructive suggestions, and will take them under advisement.


 Linky (Top is chopped off because I wanted to get the whole page in there.)

I think the problem's actually with AdBlock plus -- it doesn't like some of your ads -- but I can say that yours is the first website I've seen that has had these kind of format problems with it.

=========

BTB, going off what Morry mentions, I could also turn off avatars in my profile and thus gain some room -- but I actually recognize posters by their avatars as much as or more than their "handles".


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## kcp

Wow, all that for an ad?

I too would like to see what it would look like with the ad on the right. The reading from left to right thing makes sense tme too, but it looks like Harri has made up his mind and either way, left or right, it's not ugly. We'll all get used to it.



Adam said:


> Well, as had been said already, the add on the left really screws with the page layout and looks amateurish. I have a tough time understanding how anyone could think that was a good idea... Add to that the animation (including the ad above), and I find it repulsive to the point that I would go out of my way to avoid these products altogether. The Kessler ad is fine and serves it's purpose. These other flashing ads are obnoxious to say the least... :x


For those of you who dislike the ads, neither Harri or anyone at SOTW designed them. So just email P,Mauriat & MusicMedic and tell them their ad is repulsive yourself.


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## lhoffman

No, I've never read that page before. But it's awkward too.
You're right, the message text never started from the left anyway. But if the banner was on the right, it would look most similar to the way it was before. I don't see how your comment about newspapers is relevant to web layout: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/247565 
FYI, Firefox on Mac, I have to right scroll to see the whole screen. That's pretty obnoxious. Yes, free site blah blah, just make the ads easier to digest. I actually have to WANT to read the page before I see the ad therein.



Harri Rautiainen said:


> Many of us learned to read before Al Gore invented the Internet.
> A newspaper page is divided into 6-8 columns. The reading won't necessary start from the left of the page?
> 
> If the banner were not on the left there would be the column containing the user name, avatar etc. The message text won't start from the far left anyway.
> 
> Did you ever read this page: http://www.saxontheweb.net/Rock_n_Roll/RockSax22.html
> 
> Should I change the lay-out for all SOTW article pages which have the bio/advertising column on the left?


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## Reedsplinter

saxmanglen said:


> Allright everyone,
> 
> Who's going to do start the fundraiser/collection to buy out the Mauriat banner?
> I am just kidding.


COOKIE SALE


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## Harri Rautiainen

Happy now?
:twisted:


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## saxmanglen

Harri,

Small change but a big difference on the eyes! There's ample room for a few more select sponsors on that right side too.

Thanks Harri


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## Morry

Harri Rautiainen said:


> Happy now?
> :twisted:


Much more pleasing to the eye Harri. BTW, I just sent a little contribution your way via Paypal. Others commenting in this thread should do the same.


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## jazzbluescat

Harri Rautiainen said:


> Happy now?
> :twisted:


I, for one, am ecstatic. Thanks, Harri. :salute:


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## lhoffman

Sorry Harri, I just re-read my post this morning. I didn't mean to come across so caustic. Chalk it up to PUI (Posting Under the Influence). Thanks for taking my suggestion, I really do think it's more readable now. I never had a problem with the ad itself; hell, sell a few more and tack them on along the side.



lhoffman said:


> No, I've never read that page before. But it's awkward too.
> You're right, the message text never started from the left anyway...


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## Reedsplinter

lhoffman said:


> Sorry Harri, I just re-read my post this morning. I didn't mean to come across so caustic. Chalk it up to PUI (Posting Under the Influence). Thanks for taking my suggestion, I really do think it's more readable now. I never had a problem with the ad itself; hell, sell a few more and tack them on along the side.


I didn't mind it as much as many seemed to in the other configuration, but I do prefer it this way.


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## hakukani

Harri Rautiainen said:


> Happy now?
> :twisted:


Thanks, Harri--it really is better.

How 'bout it guys, cough up some $$$$$$! It's easy to be green!


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## Reedsplinter

hakukani said:


> Thanks, Harri--it really is better.
> 
> How 'bout it guys, cough up some $$$$$$! It's easy to be green!


Quite right, Maestro. I just ponied up.


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## jazzbluescat

Some people, I'm not mentioning any names, talk too much. Lord, did I say that out loud?


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## Rackety Sax

Vast improvement both for the forum content and the ad, thanks Harri.


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## Morry

I actually think it makes the ad more visible. When it was on the left, I think your eye just sweeps over it looking for the forum content. Kudos to Harri.


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## Gandalfe

Wow, I went to lunch and bam... what a change. Now who is going to fight for the coveted top, right-hand corner position?


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## Pete

Well, now I'm trying on my wide-screen D620 laptop.

I've got almost three inches of whitespace on the right side. That's better than three inches on the left -- when I use a multimonitor setup, I can probably stretch the whitespace to my other monitor -- but that's still a work-around I'd have to use for this website, only. That's a bit annoying and there's nothing I can do about it on my laptop.

If there's gonna be ads that drastically affect how members read this website, as I've said, those folks that have contributed to this forum and/or www.saxontheweb.net should have the option not to have to see 'em. Hey, it's just a theme and could be added for free and is pretty easy to administrate.

Harri, I sent you a PM.


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