# A Safe Space - a thank you to Harri and the moderators



## Budget Explosion (Feb 2, 2003)

Thank you Harri and moderators for providing us a safe space free from Politics. After listening to the radio and checking out Facebook and other social media, (and having to listen to my relatives yammer on) I'm so appreciative of the oasis that SOTW provides. The SOTW "No Politics" decree was a very wise decision (in my opinion.)

:salute:


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!


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## adamk (Jun 22, 2009)

Sax and other WWs is what it's all about.
Thanks


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## artstove (Sep 11, 2009)

Yes, I agree. I tend to be quite political in my posts elsewhere (with all that entails), and I appreciate knowing that I can come here and just be focused on sax and music. It is a nice refuge, and it is nice that we can come together here around music, with the most heated debates being around vintage v. modern horns, whether or not to get a mouthpiece refaced, and if different materials/finishes affect your sound. Thank you.


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## bandmommy (Jul 4, 2007)

Me too! 
I don't want to hear your political view.
Now if you've got a new horn, mouthpiece, or nagging issue with something playing realted...
I'm happy to listen and help if possible.


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## ZootTheSim (Jun 22, 2016)

Whaddya mean, there's just no avoiding political campaigning on this forum! You got yer Conners, yer Martinites, yer Buescherians, even yer Royalists (pro-King).


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## mascio (Nov 11, 2008)

Budget Explosion said:


> Thank you Harri and moderators for providing us a safe space free from Politics. After listening to the radio and checking out Facebook and other social media, (and having to listen to my relatives yammer on) I'm so appreciative of the oasis that SOTW provides. The SOTW "No Politics" decree was a very wise decision (in my opinion.)
> 
> :salute:


i would like to add my "thank you" as well. i am sure i would not come around here anymore if i had to be subjected to other people's politics.


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## Secondhandsaxes (Nov 18, 2008)

thanks for this thread......
i also,appreciate the no politics vibe.....
enjoy the life....

cheers,philip


Budget Explosion said:


> Thank you Harri and moderators for providing us a safe space free from Politics. After listening to the radio and checking out Facebook and other social media, (and having to listen to my relatives yammer on) I'm so appreciative of the oasis that SOTW provides. The SOTW "No Politics" decree was a very wise decision (in my opinion.)
> 
> :salute:


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## Dermot (Oct 12, 2014)

Budget Explosion said:


> Thank you Harri and moderators for providing us a safe space free from Politics. After listening to the radio and checking out Facebook and other social media, (and having to listen to my relatives yammer on) I'm so appreciative of the oasis that SOTW provides. The SOTW "No Politics" decree was a very wise decision (in my opinion.)
> 
> :salute:


So true Politics can be so evil 
In Belfast you have to be careful what colour you paint the front of your house in case people say it was a Politically motivated colour decision:bluewink2:


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

Yes, it makes complete sense to keep politics away from a saxophone forum, especially given the difficulty people seem to have of communicating with each other in a civil manner on controversial topics (even threads about mouthpieces have melted down). But despite the obvious logic of the prohibition, I have a tiny but disquieting feeling about it, a feeling the exact nature of which I can't even put my finger on. Maybe I've read too much history.


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## Nefertiti (Feb 2, 2003)

At this point I wish Facebook had a no politics policy............


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## osloutah (Jan 9, 2015)

Budget Explosion said:


> Thank you Harri and moderators for providing us a safe space free from Politics. After listening to the radio and checking out Facebook and other social media, (and having to listen to my relatives yammer on) I'm so appreciative of the oasis that SOTW provides. The SOTW "No Politics" decree was a very wise decision (in my opinion.)
> 
> :salute:


+ infinity

This is the only social media I use.


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## HeavyWeather77 (May 15, 2004)

I see now more than ever why the "don't discuss politics or religion in polite company" rule of etiquette was so popular for so many generations. I agree with everything above and add my thanks for the refuge.


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## MLucky (Oct 1, 2014)

I'd like to add my thanks, as well, especially since I recently was critical of the mods for shutting down a certain thread that had gotten more than bit testy. While I admit to disagreeing with that particular call, I want to say how much I appreciate the efforts of the moderators to keep discussions here on a civil basis. It's truly remarkable how well they've succeeded, especially in the comparison with the vast majority of internet discussion groups, which almost always wind up being dominated by the most abrasive personalities and trolls. Thanks, mods, you're doing great!


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## SAXISMYAXE (Jun 13, 2003)

Make certain that we don't go off on a political rant while talking about No Politics.  
Believe me, it could happen.


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## Dermot (Oct 12, 2014)

SAXISMYAXE said:


> Make certain that we don't go off on a political rant while talking about No Politics.
> Believe me, it could happen.


:bluewink2: "You can say that again" ah you did:bluewink2:


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## EZ (Jun 28, 2004)

I'm pretty much all outta popcorn.


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## adamk (Jun 22, 2009)

Sticks in my teeth.


EZ said:


> I'm pretty much all outta popcorn.


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## 10mfan (Jun 15, 2003)

I'm not looking to stir up trouble, but Trump just tweeted me and said thank you for making mouthpieces great again.... 

ok, just kidding....relax....calm down...chill out...stop, stop, stop, stop, stop......relaaaaaaax......ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh



Seriously---very happy this place has been so easy going for quite a while, and the no politics rule is a fantastic idea.
A big thank you to the mods for making this a great place to go for sax info and products, etc...


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

SAXISMYAXE said:


> Make certain that we don't go off on a political rant while talking about No Politics.
> Believe me, it could happen.


No rant here, and yes, I completely agree that the No Politics rule is absolutely necessary to keep the forum from devolving into a free-for-all bully dominated jungle. However, as I suggested earlier, I have a vague feeling of ambivalence regarding it, a sense that can best be illustrated by a sincerely hypothetical example that is NOT meant to apply to any other time or place other than that in which it occurs. It's an image of Nero at his computer, signed on to Fiddlers on the Web, absorbed in an argument on a thread about which strings are best for blue grass, while in the background Rome is burning. In other words, is it possible to reach a point outside in which a No Politics rule inside becomes, well, . . . an absurdity? I honestly don't know the answer, but the question nags, and I hope it's not one that violates the rule, because it's asked in all sincerity.


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## KennyZ (Dec 23, 2006)

10mfan said:


> I'm not looking to stir up trouble, but Trump just tweeted me and said thank you for making mouthpieces great again....


... and I'm waiting to see Mr President play a saxophone _à la_ BC but with a Conn from '70s...
sorry, peace :love2:


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## SAXISMYAXE (Jun 13, 2003)

Nearly everyone among the membership understands fully the "spirit of the law" behind this rule, and most abide by it accordingly. No Politics/No Religion is about as concise and self explanatory as it gets.



FredCDobbs said:


> No rant here, and yes, I completely agree that the No Politics rule is absolutely necessary to keep the forum from devolving into a free-for-all bully dominated jungle. However, as I suggested earlier, I have a vague feeling of ambivalence regarding it, a sense that can best be illustrated by a sincerely hypothetical example that is NOT meant to apply to any other time or place other than that in which it occurs. It's an image of Nero at his computer, signed on to Fiddlers on the Web, absorbed in an argument on a thread about which strings are best for blue grass, while in the background Rome is burning. In other words, is it possible to reach a point outside in which a No Politics rule inside becomes, well, . . . an absurdity? I honestly don't know the answer, but the question nags, and I hope it's not one that violates the rule, because it's asked in all sincerity.


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

SAXISMYAXE said:


> Nearly everyone among the membership understands fully the "spirit of the law" behind this rule, and most abide by it accordingly. No Politics/No Religion is about as concise and self explanatory as it gets.


This hardly answers my question, Mike, which, albeit theoretical, was asked with all sincerity. However, I understand the response, both literally and especially in spirit, so I'll not press the issue further.


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## bluto (Apr 3, 2014)

Yes. Much appreciation that this place does such a good job keeping politics and religion from spoiling the musical focus of this forum.
We know the rules. All it takes is a little self-discipline.


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## hakukani (Jan 10, 2007)

There's good reason for the no politics/no religion rule. We tried a 'hot topics' section for a few weeks. Ho, boy--and it was before I was an admin. I was just as bad as some of the others in some of my posts--although I always was pretty civil.

It was a good decision to toss it.


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## saxmanjack (Feb 3, 2003)

hakukani said:


> It was a good decision to toss it.


...and the clarinets?


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## SuperAction80 (Oct 8, 2007)

SAXISMYAXE said:


> Make certain that we don't go off on a political rant while talking about No Politics.
> Believe me, it could happen.


Lessons learned from 9 years ago. :lol:


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## scrollshank (Mar 13, 2015)

SAXISMYAXE said:


> Make certain that we don't go off on a political rant while talking about No Politics.
> Believe me, it could happen.


I almost did just that earlier today. Fortunately, I realized what I was doing before I posted it.


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## SAXISMYAXE (Jun 13, 2003)

hakukani said:


> There's good reason for the no politics/no religion rule. We tried a 'hot topics' section for a few weeks. Ho, boy--and it was before I was an admin. I was just as bad as some of the others in some of my posts--although I always was pretty civil.
> 
> It was a good decision to toss it.


Don't remind me. That headache Hot Topic forum was my brainstorm, unfortunately. Glad we put it to rest ultimately


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## Operator (Jul 27, 2015)

FredCDobbs said:


> No rant here, and yes, I completely agree that the No Politics rule is absolutely necessary to keep the forum from devolving into a free-for-all bully dominated jungle. However, as I suggested earlier, I have a vague feeling of ambivalence regarding it, a sense that can best be illustrated by a sincerely hypothetical example that is NOT meant to apply to any other time or place other than that in which it occurs. It's an image of Nero at his computer, signed on to Fiddlers on the Web, absorbed in an argument on a thread about which strings are best for blue grass, while in the background Rome is burning. In other words, is it possible to reach a point outside in which a No Politics rule inside becomes, well, . . . an absurdity? I honestly don't know the answer, but the question nags, and I hope it's not one that violates the rule, because it's asked in all sincerity.


On one hand, I think that's a great question. It's very Socratic. On the other... if Rome burns behind him, perhaps he should be on a different forum than FOTW to discuss this problem. Maybe one with an audience there specifically for the issue and with the means to fix it. It's all about compartmentalization.


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## Phil1 (May 6, 2011)

I concur about the no politics rule and some of the other guidelines that keep this site organic and enriching rather than wasting time and space arguing about 'nothing'. 

I have a friend who I met because we're both musicians and I know I would disagree with a lot of his political views so I adapted the SOTW model of NO POLITICS in our conversations. My friend has degrees from two of the top universities in America and I've learned so much from just talking to him. We can discuss music and the arts in general. It's not like censorship either it's just eliminating topics that you know will lead to arguments. It also exposes how subjective opinions can waste time and energy that could be used for discussions of objective facts. 

It's nice to discuss topics that unite us and enhance life. Too bad this concept can't be adopted nation wide. Ok I'm going to shut up before I cross a line like Harri alluded to where politics creep back in.


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

Phil1 said:


> I concur about the no politics rule and some of the other guidelines that keep this site organic and enriching rather than wasting time and space arguing about 'nothing'.
> 
> I have a friend who I met because we're both musicians and I know I would disagree with a lot of his political views so I adapted the SOTW model of NO POLITICS in our conversations. My friend has degrees from two of the top universities in America and I've learned so much from just talking to him. We can discuss music and the arts in general. It's not like censorship either it's just eliminating topics that you know will lead to arguments. It also exposes how subjective opinions can waste time and energy that could be used for discussions of objective facts.
> 
> It's nice to discuss topics that unite us and enhance life. Too bad this concept can't be adopted nation wide. Ok I'm going to shut up before I cross a line like Harri alluded to where politics creep back in.


See the movie Ship of Fools, 1966, nominated for 8 Academy awards, from the Katherine Anne Porter novel.

A neighbor and personal friend down the road plays guitar and sings, and we actually met each other through music. We have gigged together as a duo many times. We are opposed in our essential political outlooks (although we both agree that things are a mess), but we do not attempt to censure ourselves; rather, we often have heated arguments that even sometimes spill over into music time. However, we respect each others' basic honesty and integrity, and our political opposition has never affected our friendship. I regard him in this respect as a valuable general barometer of his point of view, and our discussions have resulted in some shifts of opinion on either side. I believe that this kind of political cross-polinization is very valuable. I also believe that the growing fear in live, flesh and blood social settings of bringing up increasingly looming political issues, is itself a significant indicator, as it always has been historically.


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## ZootTheSim (Jun 22, 2016)

I wonder whether the moderators would permit a Forum thread or group dedicated to discussions of politics as they intersect with music--Billy Holiday's "Strange Fruit," for instance.


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

ZootTheSim said:


> I wonder whether the moderators would permit a Forum thread or group dedicated to discussions of politics as they intersect with music--Billy Holiday's "Strange Fruit," for instance.


See:



SAXISMYAXE said:


> Nearly everyone among the membership understands fully the "spirit of the law" behind this rule, and most abide by it accordingly. No Politics/No Religion is about as concise and self explanatory as it gets.


I understand where you are coming from though.

There is a no religion rule, and yet a Sacred Saxophone forum so it seems reasonable for a equivalent re: politics.

However it's not the same. I think we can discuss racism because (provided we don't condone it of course) because it isn't politics.


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## Grumps (Feb 3, 2003)

SAXISMYAXE said:


> Don't remind me. That giant headache Hot Topic Forum was my brainstorm, unfortunately. Glad we put it to rest ultimately


I believe at the time my plea in opposition was that we didn't need anymore reasons to hate each other; in addition to the usual hot topics like Kenny G, alternate Bb fingerings and sticky G#'s. What did that last... three days?


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## Phil1 (May 6, 2011)

FredCDobbs said:


> See the movie Ship of Fools, 1966, nominated for 8 Academy awards, from the Katherine Anne Porter novel.
> 
> A neighbor and personal friend down the road plays guitar and sings, and we actually met each other through music. We have gigged together as a duo many times. We are opposed in our essential political outlooks (although we both agree that things are a mess), but we do not attempt to censure ourselves; rather, we often have heated arguments that even sometimes spill over into music time. However, we respect each others' basic honesty and integrity, and our political opposition has never affected our friendship. I regard him in this respect as a valuable general barometer of his point of view, and our discussions have resulted in some shifts of opinion on either side. I believe that this kind of political cross-polinization is very valuable. I also believe that the growing fear in live, flesh and blood social settings of bringing up increasingly looming political issues, is itself a significant indicator, as it always has been historically.


Hi. I actually read the book "Ship Of Fools" because my mom had us enrolled in the Book Of The Month Club. Oh and I don't remember one iota of what the book or the movie was about.

Anyway concerning your relationship with your friend I agree that if you can put aside severe differences of opinions after contentious arguments then that's a healthy relationship. It's just that there are other elements that come into play with my friendship. He's a White guy who grew up in rural Maine and I'm a black guy who grew up in a city so if we stated how we feel on certain issues that involve race then the friendship may not last very long. What I mean is that some of our differences would go so deep that I could not honestly say "well I can overlook that" because some of the violence that blacks suffered came from a certain mindset. Now I believe that my friend never thought like that or participated or supported that mindset. It's just that sometimes a person labels themselves as this or that and some extreme views are endorsed that are hurtful to a segment of society.

Ok I see that I'm drifting into politics so I'm going to shut up before I cross too many lines.


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## Phil1 (May 6, 2011)

ZootTheSim said:


> I wonder whether the moderators would permit a Forum thread or group dedicated to discussions of politics as they intersect with music--Billy Holiday's "Strange Fruit," for instance.


This is exactly what I was alluding to in post number 37. Some people would be open minded enough to not let an intellectual discussion get out of hand but it wouldn't take much for that topic to go off the rails.


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## Phil1 (May 6, 2011)

Grumps said:


> I believe at the time my plea in opposition was that we didn't need anymore reasons to hate each other; in addition to the usual hot topics like Kenny G, alternate Bb fingerings and sticky G#'s. What did that last... three days?


You forgot one of the topics that is actually a threat to civilization, High F# key or no High F# key. Which reminds me of a University of Kentucky fan discussing how his team was faring. The guy he was talking to said "well it's not like it's a matter of life and death" and the U of K fan responded with " Oh it's way more important than that."


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

Phil1 said:


> Hi. I actually read the book "Ship Of Fools" because my mom had us enrolled in the Book Of The Month Club. Oh and I don't remember one iota of what the book or the movie was about.
> 
> Anyway concerning your relationship with your friend I agree that if you can put aside severe differences of opinions after contentious arguments then that's a healthy relationship. It's just that there are other elements that come into play with my friendship. He's a White guy who grew up in rural Maine and I'm a black guy who grew up in a city so if we stated how we feel on certain issues that involve race then the friendship may not last very long. What I mean is that some of our differences would go so deep that I could not honestly say "well I can overlook that" because some of the violence that blacks suffered came from a certain mindset. Now I believe that my friend never thought like that or participated or supported that mindset. It's just that sometimes a person labels themselves as this or that and some extreme views are endorsed that are hurtful to a segment of society.
> 
> Ok I see that I'm drifting into politics so I'm going to shut up before I cross too many lines.


Phil, if the two of you carefully avoid 'hot topics' such as race, then it seems to me there is an unfortunately lost opportunity for mutual human understanding, and especially for the deepening of your friend's humanity. How is he ever going to change his viewpoint, whether it be a conscious one or not, without such discussion with someone he trusts? This is not to imply that it is your responsibility in any way, shape, or form to change his viewpoint--but I think it is a precious opportunity.

I've made a mental note to read the K.A. Porter book. I saw the movie around the time it came out. It's no knee slapper.


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

Pete Thomas said:


> However it's not the same. I think we can discuss racism because (provided we don't condone it of course) because it isn't politics.


It very much is politics for increasingly vocal elements in the U.S. as well as Europe.


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## Grumps (Feb 3, 2003)

With Valentine's Day almost here, I'm reminded of one of my favorite love stories as put to film, Sid & Nancy. There's a scene where the two of them get to New York and are at a methadone clinic where the man behind the dispensing counter goes off on how the heroin trade blossomed with the U.S. incursion into Vietnam, and how the junk was sent back to mollify the masses. After they get their doses, Sid asks Nancy, "what's he goin' on about?" "Oh", replies Nancy, "just some bull**** politics." 

There is wisdom there in her words, and I reflect upon them often.


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## SAXISMYAXE (Jun 13, 2003)

ZootTheSim said:


> I wonder whether the moderators would permit a Forum thread or group dedicated to discussions of politics as they intersect with music--Billy Holiday's "Strange Fruit," for instance.


We ALREADY experimented with a sub forum allowing politics called HOT TOPICS a few years ago. It was a complete debacle of mudslinging and misbehavior that became nothing but a nightmare to moderate. We even tried limiting it to those who requested to be included to no avail. Those who were here to witness it will remember the drama.

No, we won't be trying that again.:banghead:


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## bluto (Apr 3, 2014)

FredCDobbs said:


> Phil, if the two of you carefully avoid 'hot topics' such as race, then it seems to me there is an unfortunately lost opportunity for mutual human understanding, and especially for the deepening of your friend's humanity.


Or, bringing up political differences might short circuit opportunities to enlighten each other on topics that aren't, or needn't be, political. Music and saxophones come to mind.

As a veteran of several rough and tumble political forums for over a decade, I can tell you that even the most elegant discussions about politics only serve to clarify one's own thoughts and arguments. Few minds are changed.


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## SAXISMYAXE (Jun 13, 2003)

bluto said:


> Or, bringing up political differences might short circuit opportunities to enlighten each other on topics that aren't, or needn't be, political. Music and saxophones come to mind.
> 
> As a veteran of several rough and tumble political forums for over a decade, I can tell you that even the most elegant discussions about politics only serve to clarify one's own thoughts and arguments. Few minds are changed.


BINGO, you are correct Sir!


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

Bit of a problem replying in this thread, I keep getting:

_Warning: Only variables should be passed by reference in ..../newreply.php on line 389_

Followed by a duplicate post


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

Bit of a problem replying in this thread, I keep getting:

_Warning: Only variables should be passed by reference in ..../newreply.php on line 389_

Followed by a duplicate post


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

Operator said:


> Seems to be forum-wide. It's not just this thread. Are you mobile?


From time to time.


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## Operator (Jul 27, 2015)

Disregard that. I was trying to edit my post to say disregard but this forum loads so ungodly slowly here, it was impossible. This is the only site that loads slower than molasses here. I don't know what that's about, if it's my connection here or what. Posting... disregard the duplicate...


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

Operator said:


> Disregard that. I was trying to edit my post to say disregard but this forum loads so ungodly slowly here, it was impossible. This is the only site that loads slower than molasses here. I don't know what that's about, if it's my connection here or what. Posting... disregard the duplicate...


I think Putin has hacked the forum


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

Operator said:


> Disregard that. I was trying to edit my post to say disregard but this forum loads so ungodly slowly here, it was impossible. This is the only site that loads slower than molasses here. I don't know what that's about, if it's my connection here or what. Posting... disregard the duplicate...


I think Putin has hacked the forum


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## Operator (Jul 27, 2015)

Pete Thomas said:


> I think Putin has hacked the forum


Ha! The one time he wasn't shirtless and riding grizzly bears


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

bluto said:


> Or, bringing up political differences might short circuit opportunities to enlighten each other on topics that aren't, or needn't be, political. Music and saxophones come to mind.
> 
> As a veteran of several rough and tumble political forums for over a decade, I can tell you that even the most elegant discussions about politics only serve to clarify one's own thoughts and arguments. Few minds are changed.


Phil's point was that the political might morph into the racial, and he was unsure, and concerned, that his friend's revealed viewpoint on racial issues might be such as to rupture their relationship. I certainly can't speak for Phil; but if I were hesitant to discuss with a musical friend, say, Israel, for fear that an initial political discussion might end up revealing a friend's open or latent anti-Semitism, I don't think I would feel comfortable with the relationship unless and until I could resolve that question to some level of personal satisfaction. Again, I'm not speaking for Phil, but I can only surmise that such a dilemma occurs so frequently for a black guy in America that he just gets tired of dealing with it, and lets sleeping dogs lie, so to speak.


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## Somes (Jul 18, 2009)

This is reminding me of Dr G's "never forget" thread. 
Politics does matter. And the big historical things. 
But the ability to get beyond politics also matters. To connect with people on other levels. Like music, which can be a bridge over many differences. That's a thing I really appreciate here. So many other spheres of life are negative and polarized. So it's not just that politics is banished; its that something positive is encouraged. Most of what I've read on the forum is about enthusiasm and trying to do better (even if by buying those ephemeral "chops in a box"). I wish those qualities were more common outside.


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## SAXISMYAXE (Jun 13, 2003)

The double posting error isn't solely mobile related, as it is happening to me via desktop as well. I've let Harri know about Fred's reported error thread so that he can address the technical problem.


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## Grumps (Feb 3, 2003)

Someone once told me that they couldn't have a friend who was of a different political party. Loyalty, honor, dependability... I'd have thought those qualities would matter more when considering friendship.


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## FredCDobbs (Oct 23, 2004)

Grumps said:


> Someone once told me that they couldn't have a friend who was of a different political party.


It's hard to believe that such a person had lived much of a life.


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## ILoveJK (Jan 17, 2014)

Pete Thomas said:


> I think Putin has hacked the forum


LMAO!


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