# The "True Greats" ccc non derivative players!



## selmer (Aug 8, 2007)

So when we think about the "Greats" in saxophone playing and we use originality and being non derivative as a filter..... Who do we come up with? 

I can only come up with:

Coleman Hawkins
Charlie Parker
John Coltrane
Ornette Coleman
And maybe ... John Zorn and Maceo Parker!


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## lllebret (Jul 23, 2003)

Eric Dolphy, Rudresh Mahanthappa, Greg Osby


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## 1saxman (Feb 3, 2003)

There's no such thing as 'non-derivative'. We are all products of what has gone before. This is just as true today as it was in 1940.


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## StrongD (May 7, 2005)

1saxman said:


> There's no such thing as 'non-derivative'. We are all products of what has gone before. This is just as true today as it was in 1940.


Agreed!


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## sopsax (Feb 3, 2003)

I'd add Getz to the list. Don't know that his tonal or technical chops were particularly innovative, but I'd stack his harmonic understanding, as well as his ability to create unpredictable, melodically coherent, endlessly varied contrapunctal riffs on the changes, against anybody's. We all have many heroes & it's silly to rank them; nearly all of the players I revere are African-American, so I sometimes fall into the paradigm of evaluating somebody's sound according to how "black" it is. Somehow Getz doesn't seem to be anything but Getz -- yeah, sometimes too commercial or "accessible," but always the living example of what a human mind could do with melody & harmony if it were, like, perfect. Getz gets my vote for originality.

I saw him play live not long before he died. He didn't look well -- puffed-up & edemic -- but still played like an angel.

I've seen Ornette live, too. That experience was like looking into a totally unique & fearless mind. There's no path he won't explore, no assumption he won't question. I think his reputation will simmer & grow for a long time to come.


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## MLucky (Oct 1, 2014)

selmer said:


> So when we think about the "Greats" in saxophone playing and we use originality and being non derivative as a filter..... Who do we come up with?
> 
> I can only come up with:
> 
> ...


Those guys certainly qualify as 'greats' in my book. But non-derivative? Just to take one example, Coltrane was very open about being influenced by Bird, Johnny Hodges, Sonny Stitt, John Gilmore, Ornette Coleman ... and those are just the ones I can remember him mentioning in interviews. Every great player is 'standing on the shoulders of giants', I think.


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## Ballad state of mind (Oct 19, 2014)

MLucky said:


> 'standing on the shoulders of giants', I think.


That's a great saying.... Standing on the shoulders of giants. I have that feeling everyday. I think it means I'm learning and appreciating more everyday.


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## mascio (Nov 11, 2008)

well Bird comes straight out of Lester Young and he didn't even make your list. 1saxman has it right.


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

mascio said:


> well Bird comes straight out of Lester Young and he didn't even make your list. 1saxman has it right.


I see Bird on the list (under the name of Charlie Parker)

I get the point of the thread, though maybe the title would be better as less derivative.

Coltrane' skater work was definitely less derivative (e.g. Ascension)


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## MrBlueNote (Sep 17, 2012)

Pete Thomas said:


> I see Bird on the list (under the name of Charlie Parker)


True, but I believe mascio was referring to Lester.


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## Pete Thomas (Sep 12, 2004)

Ah yes, should have gone to Specsavers. It had occurred to me also that Lester should be there, his playing was very much in direct contrast to those at the time struggling to play like Coleman Hawkins.


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## MrBlueNote (Sep 17, 2012)

Agreed. Lester was a true original, despite facing tremendous pressures to conform.

For example, there's that famous story that when he joined Fletcher Henderson's band as Hawk's replacement, everyone in the band was pressuring him to play like Hawk. This including Mrs. Henderson, who made Lester listen to Hawk's recordings every day! And through all that, Lester was Lester.


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## soybean (Oct 26, 2007)

I would add Cannonball, Paul Desmond and Jr Walker.


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## Ballad state of mind (Oct 19, 2014)

MrBlueNote said:


> Agreed. Lester was a true original, despite facing tremendous pressures to conform.
> 
> For example, there's that famous story that when he joined Fletcher Henderson's band as Hawk's replacement, everyone in the band was pressuring him to play like Hawk. This including Mrs. Henderson, who made Lester listen to Hawk's recordings every day! And through all that, Lester was Lester.


Not disputing what you say, but seems like a strange way to run a band. Ask someone to join the band, then ask them to play like someone else.


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## whaler (Jan 11, 2006)

Joe Henderson. He seemed to enter the scene fully formed and unique. Maybe because at his recording debut was a little older than most.
You could probably argue he was derivative of Sonny Rollins but I've always though of him as extremely influential to most of the guys we hear now.
Possibly had the best technique and time feel of any sax player I've heard live, except maybe Stan Getz.


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## MLucky (Oct 1, 2014)

Ballad state of mind said:


> Not disputing what you say, but seems like a strange way to run a band. Ask someone to join the band, then ask them to play like someone else.


It does seem strange, but it's almost certainly true. Lester Young told that story in published interviews, and nobody from the Hampton band ever disputed it, AfAIK.

We often hear people say, "back in the old days, the most important thing was to have your own sound." But apparently that wasn't always the case. Bandleaders wanted to give the paying customers what they wanted, and most of them apparently wanted a beefy, buzzy tenor sound that was different from what Pres had in mind, so Hampton and his crew tried to straighten him out. Good thing for all of us that they failed!


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## Tryptykon (Feb 8, 2005)

whaler said:


> Joe Henderson. He seemed to enter the scene fully formed and unique. Maybe because at his recording debut was a little older than most.
> You could probably argue he was derivative of Sonny Rollins but I've always though of him as extremely influential to most of the guys we hear now.
> Possibly had the best technique and time feel of any sax player I've heard live, except maybe Stan Getz.


I think Joe's time feel and technique was better than Getz's, actually .

Sonny and Joe absorbed Bird's rhythmic and harmonic concepts better than anyone else I can think of .


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## mascio (Nov 11, 2008)

Two great jazz saxophonists who were making records well before Coleman Hawkins are Bud Freeman and Frankie Trumbauer. Listen to their recordings and you will hear that they had an influence on both Hawk and Pres.


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## mrpeebee (Jan 29, 2010)

On soprano >Sydney Bechet< was an original player from the 20's onwards.

On tenor the first major player was of course Coleman Hawkins, but we shouldn't forget that the biggest influence on him was trumpet player Louis Armstrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_Hawkins#1921.E2.80.931939


> Hawkins's playing changed significantly during Louis Armstrong's tenure with the Henderson Orchestra (1924-25).


On alto you had besides Johnny Hodges also Benny Carter and >Willie Smith< as original players in the 30's.

On baritone Harry Carney and Gerry Mulligan can be seen as the original baritone players.

On bass it was Ardrian Rollini.



sopsax said:


> I'd add Getz to the list.


>Stan Getz< really came from Lester Young in his early days (actually almost all tenor players came from Hawk and/or Prez).



MrBlueNote said:


> Lester was a true original, despite facing tremendous pressures to conform.


He was, but he was also influenced by Frankie Trumbauer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Young#With_the_Count_Basie_Orchestra



Ballad state of mind said:


> Not disputing what you say, but seems like a strange way to run a band. Ask someone to join the band, then ask them to play like someone else.


This was actually very normal in in the early days of Jazz. A big part of the success of the (big) bands where the major soloist's in the band and if one left the replacer had to try to play as close as possible to the guy that left (because that's what the audience wanted to hear and thus also what the band leader wanted). Think for instance of the tenor players of Basie (Lester replaced by Don Byas, Herschel replaced by Tate) and Lionel Hampton (Jacquet replaced by Cobb).


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## Tryptykon (Feb 8, 2005)

mascio said:


> Two great jazz saxophonists who were making records well before Coleman Hawkins are Bud Freeman and Frankie Trumbauer. Listen to their recordings and you will hear that they had an influence on both Hawk and Pres.


Trumbauer yes.. Bud Freeman, not so much .


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## dctwells (Apr 10, 2010)

Steve Lacy
Lee Konitz
Warne Marsh
Dewey Redman
Roscoe Mitchell
Roland Kirk
Anthony Braxton
Jim Pepper
Jan Garbarek
Joe Lovano
Gary Thomas
Steve Coleman
Tony Malaby
Dave Binney


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